Interactivity, and its place in the meta


I find this a fun discussion to watch and participate.

I disagree with this too. You know the tools they have, twin strike, PF, gotatsu, OBS, Cobra. Ideal would be in burning their PFs, if they have hurl, you know it, if they have crescent spear, they’ll probably play it asap so not to have to pay it later.

The notion of “it’s a complete crap shoot based entirely on what they draw and nothing to do with you” is the essence of combos and proactive play both. Putting out threats for the opponent to answer rather than being the one having to make answers


Fair enough I did fail to mention that you can adapt a little bit since you usually know about spear/hurl, my issue is there still just isnt much adaption you can do, and the match almost always comes down to did they draw the right answers/combo at the right time, but at least the “drawing the right answers” part is relevant to most matches.


I think, if I understand deathsadvocate correctly, that it isn’t necesarrily the invisibility of the combo alone.
It’s also that it’s just straight out of hand damage which nothing can really prevent or de done against.

And it’s true there’s very little prevention against it going off:

  1. It’s targeted (can’t put down minions to scatter the damage and minmilaize it) so it goes face.
  2. It’s straight damage (not removal, no conditions attached aside from the mana cost).
  3. It’s completely out-of-hand (with noteable exceptions you mentioned). They only need to hold the cards, not have a minion for set-up.
  4. It is instant (while Azure Summoning is also horrible, you can still respond to it, with Plasma Storm for example or a Skorn or mininos beating them up).
  5. It has infinite range, nowhere on the board is safe and can be done from anywhere.

In that regard it’s as annoying as Burnhorn, with the added benefit that you don’t suffer any damage or give any cards to the opponent.

That was his main argument, I believe, that when you say you dislike Burnhorn or similar but don’t dislike spellhai it is a bit of a double-standard. That and that he personally dislikes spellhai that eventually became the main point of contention.


As far as I’m concerned, I love having combo decks in this game. They can be incredibly satisfying to pull off, and it’s another way of winning the lategame besides dropping big minions with powerful effects.

My biggest gripe with combo decks is when they can keep up tempo while building up combo pieces. I think that’s the price a combo deck should have to pay for such incredible amounts of damage in the lategame.

With that said, DeciSpikes Starhorn is the combo deck I dislike most due to having a combo with perpetual reach and incredible power. And it STILL has cards like Makantor, Natural Selection, and buffed Saberspine Tigers (Greater Fortitude, Diretide Frenzy) for gaining tempo. One of its combo pieces, Tectonic Spikes, by the nature of its effect, can dig for more combo pieces. Even Starhorn’s BBS alone contributes to the combo as well as searching for your combo cards.

I’m more accepting of combo decks like Eight Gates Reva since she always plays from behind, and uses conditional removal to try to stabilize (save Onyx Bear Seal, which leaves a pesky, but cuddly obstacle in your path). Phoenix Fires must be managed with care (they’re great removal, but also your win con). Every move you make must be so precise, so I’m more understanding if I get burnt down from 15-20 on a 4-card combo because that means you only had about one or two cards to work with at certain points during the game.


I was recently watching one of GrincherZ’s VODs on Twitch and came across the perfect example to compare the decks:

Burnhorn Versus BurnHai - 29:54 to 36:02

While this may have constituted the perfect hand for the Burnhai player, that kind of out-of-hand damage is quite high.

I have trouble thinking of ways you could counter that or prevent it from happening but I haven’t come up with much.


Makes u think doesn’t it


While I realize that was a game you played, what exactly does this response add to the conversation?


Grinch was playing noninteractive BurnHorn and I was playing noninteractive combohai, he beat me rather convincingly the previous game too so while i do not condone these types of strategies, i dont like some being called out over others which are just as harmful imo.

Doubly so when we’re talking about out of hand damage and talking about Starhorn in the same breath. Again, I do not like these strategies being viable, but this is where Duelyst is now as a game in general, and I too am frustrated at that.

Edit: So if I came off as snarky, I apologize but I remember this game being so much better than what is being put on display atm.


First of all, I’d like to assure you that by no means was I calling anything out as more harmful than others. I was simply watching the VOD and thought of this thread. It was merely an example of a Songhai Burn game where Songhai did (I believe) 20 damage in a single turn with just spells (could have gone up to 22 if the general had attacked). The issue with that is that I could not think or a way it could have been prevented in that game.

The argument is not that one is more harmful than another, the argument is that both are equally terrible for the game. ‘You can’t call out Burnhorn as being bad and then being fine with Songhai’ was the argument, I believe. Both are bad for the game, in my particular opinion.

So in that regard I think we agree, neither are good for the game. (And my particular dislike for Burnhorn is hopefully known as well, mainly for how it just doesn’t fit the damn faction). I think most people participating in this thread are passionate about the game and would like it to be the best possible version it could be.

The game you’re referring to can be found in the same VOD (11min 44 seconds - 19min 34 seconds, I assume?).

Personal opinion:
Side-note (not going to over-analyze this but just giving my impressions of the game):
Indeed, Starhorn won that game, though I would not say as out of nowhere as in the other match. A Decimus was planted and responded to, then you very skillfully removed all the threats while also hurting Starhorn’s face. The Decimus + Spike combo was 9 damage (with BBS being 11) but it also brought Starhorn down to 4hp himself. It was also way later in the game than the particular combo of the other game.

Let me be absolutely clear in that I think both styles of out-of-hand are patently ridiculous and are bad for the game, but it seems to me that there is slightly more counter-play to Burnhorn since it requires to have a minion out on the board (able to be placed, etc…) and you need to have a certain amount of hitpoints (i.e. more than 3). Still though, you’re right in that they’re both not good for the game.


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