“Enemy healing is balanced since a broken healing card gets punished for it”
Lightchaser and sunriser are fine in my books, since they have a bad statline and need to get up close. Sunforge is literally the same kind of uninteractive garbage that kelaino is. And to top it off, it only loses 1 stat point for its effect. Saying you can dispel ziran is also irrelevant, as she ramps faster than vaath in most cases, and if she runs things like ironcliffes you may need to dispel them to reposition.
Well I disagree.
Besides what is your point? You think specific tech against heal would not be played so Lyonar should get that for free? Is that it? If tech against heal is so unimportant why care whether it gets removed from Lyonar or not?
In your scenario, I have to assume that my opponent played Shadowdancer or Shadow Sister Kelaino of their own free will knowing darn well that they could get punished by this “Moonforge Lancer” card. You know, that’s what counterplay is all about (coincidentally, the creators are those at COUNTERPLAY Games).
And as @whyb0t mentioned, it’s situational. Moonforge Lancer seems to be good against maybe 3 out of 12 generals (Zir’an, Lilitthe, Cassyva)That’s assuming they play cards that enable Moonforge Lancer’s effect, which if they understand the matchup, they won’t even play those cards.
And if they do not play their heals because they are scared of being punished for it that is not bad. Then they might just die to burst. There is a reason why heals are in a deck: Because they are needed. Also if that minion is neutral anyone can run it and they normally do not know who does and who does not. And even if they know you run it you might not have it on hand. Or maybe you do. Mindgames are fun.
Moonforge Lancer also would neat against Songhai playing Four Winds or Disruption Faye wanting to heal up after Cloak. And potential future decks. Who says Vet and the other will never get heals.
Also again, this thread not about the viability of a tech card against heal, but to discuss whether Lyonar should get that tech for free tacked on to cards that are already viable without it.
It’s hardly fair to say that dispelling Zir’an is irrelevant. That’s just ignoring a response you can make.
An important thing to note with Healynar decks is that they need to utilize their minions in order to keep the board clear and stay stabilized. Shoving a Sunforge Lancer in a corner is easier said than done when you consider that you have one less resource to help you keep your board alive, which is what enables most healing procs in the first place.
Zir’an gets put under tremendous pressure while building up her board because she’s forced to take all of the damage herself. And if she can’t maintain a board, she will get overwhelmed. Putting Sunforge Lancer in the corner is a great risk.
Healynar decks don’t run burst. Their “burst” is quite literally Holy Immolation. That’s it. The Shadowdancers and Shadow Sisters are the cards that enable any potential burst from the general.
My point, as I’ve already stated, is that Healyonar isn’t broken. And if it was, tech isn’t the way to fix it.
If it was a neutral card you could run it in any deck including burst heavy ones like Magmar.
I never said Healyonar was broken. I just said the ‘if anything is healed’ cards are bad design since they counter enemy heals for free and thus do not respect the basic design rules that everything has to come at a price and opportunity costs, i.e. there should be no free lunch.
This Moonforge lancer does anything only against kelaino and shadowdancer. No other card heals you on your opponent turn.
Counter card should give you guaranteed value but this lancer can be easily countered fi your opponent is understanding what he is doing. And this moonforge lancer does not handle the threat itself, meaning it can be removed after getting 1 or 2 procs and thats all. No counter, no value, nothing. Just a useless card in the collection.
If you think that +1 attack is strong, then speak about vaath. Otherwise getting your own healprocs doesnt come cheap and easy.
I run triple Lucent Beams, finish games using them all the time. Sunriser is semi-burst in the late game as well. I suppose you’re talking about top tier play specifically.
The only problem I say healing needs is that something has to be injured in order for you to use healing zirans-bbs-problem is she can use it on full hp minions and that is wrong.
If Ziran uses her BBS on a full health minion no healing occurs. No “on heal” effects trigger. Nothing is wrong.
What does trigger are bloodsurge keywords because they trigger when the BBS is used and not when healing occurs.
Lucent Beam’s pretty cool. I suppose that would qualify as Burst potential. But you’re right in saying that I was referring to the most commonly-run Healynar lists.
Excelsious only counts healing friendly guys so doesn’t count for “anything is healed”.
Ignore the poor wording on card.
So, Zi’Ran’s BBS was changed specifically to allow these abilities to interact with her being able to heal enemy minions. Really- it’s quite fine. If you’re worried about Lancers getting out of hand, you can always pack Lightbenders (the ATK is dispellable.) It’s a very slow engine that takes time and resources to get off the ground.
If you’re getting punished for Kelaino/Shadowdancer- perhaps the angle to look for is not just throw them out there “because you can.” If your opponent has an active Lancer, you should be replacing your Kelainos first anyways. If they drop a lancer while you have Kelaino, then they have 3 mana less to get extra procs. So, you just kindof got to roll with that.
I have recently checked and now Exelsious gets buffed by martydoming an enemy minion, so there is that.
The thing is that making all “on heal” cards having the effect trigger only of allies means something like “Deathwatch now triggers only from your minions dying.”, which is really terrible for Zir’an players. You are basicly taking away a layer of tactical opportuinities and counter potential and give nothing back, which cannot be taken positivly, especially when the cards, that have this trigger, are already not that OP.
Only, that response takes resources, which is the exact reason why I’m saying this. If there is a lancer and zir’an on the board, and you have a shroud, and lancer has been put in the corner, you can use your shroud to dispel zir’an, but the sunforge is still there. Assuming ziran gets 1 heal proc on her turn, which is highly likely, you are essentially only able to deal with 1 of the 2 issues: the generals current attack, or the potential that she’ll get stronger on her next turn. Like many other cards in healyonar, lancer can get value that can’t be dealt with by a single card, which is an issue in most cases, since the majority of cards that do this are of a large cost.
Against Zir’an, you should avoid using kelaino and shadowdancer unless it’s forced/you’re ahead and has decent board. You know it’s going to be used by your opponent so don’t let that happen. Also, Abyssian has strong lategame options which, against Zir’an it’s obviously going to be lategame anyway.
Standard cards that answer a Sunforge Lancer include:
Aspect of the Fox
Chromatic Cold
Natural Selection (in most cases)
Thumping Wave
Plasma Storm
Sun Bloom
Ritual Banishing
Punish (If Cass w/ BBS)
Onyx Bear Seal
(If Argeon) Saberspine Tiger
Elucidator
Makantor Warbeast
Spectral Revenant
Ephemeral Shroud
Lightbender
This doesn’t even include pseudo answers such as Daemonic Lure, minion + Holy Immolation, Juxtaposition, Hearth Sister + Warbird, and Rasha’s Curse + Dune caster (I may have missed some for all I know)
And honestly, most threats in the game are going to require a resource to answer it. What would the game become if you didn’t have to use your resources to win?