Duelyst Forums

'If anything is healed...' effects

#1

I think all ‘If anything is healed’ effects should be changed to ‘If a friendly general of minion is healed’.

There already is Sunforge Lancer and with the next expansion Lyonar gets Gold Vitriol which have this effect and they both punish enemy healing in addition to synergizing with Lyonar’s own healing effects.

Sunforge Lancer is run in every Healyonar deck because it is good on its own even without the enemy running any heals (and we will see about Gold Vitriol). So the additional benefit of shutting down enemy heals and effectively turning the heals of your enemy against him comes at zero opportunity cost. This additional effect is free lunch which due to balancing should not exist. If CPG thinks that there should be a way to shutdown heals additional effects like ‘If an enemy general of minion gets healed…’ should be printed which comes with the opportunity cost of taking deck space and being bad against decks with no heals.

Giving Lyonar a free way to shutdown enemy heals is especially bad since healing is healthy for the game because it adds strategic depth and counters mindless face rush decks.

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#2

I disagree. Healing is strong in general, Ziran is a way to punish that, which adds a whole new level to the game.

Additionally, as far as procs on your own turn (i.e., healing an enemy minion with BBS) it doesn’t happen often, and Ziran needs the support.

As it stands, Healyonar isn’t broken, the new card is severely overrated and even if Healyonar was broken, I don’t think it would be due to this, I think it would be due to minions getting a ton of value from procs

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#3

What? You’re joking, don’t you? Since Bloodborn she’s most probably the least General that needs any support.

I think this is a good idea to shut her down a bit. It will not help much I think. But as a first step this might be right.

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#4

As I said, if CPG thinks that that there needs to be a counter to healing add a tech card against it. Then people can decide whether it is worth including or not. Point is that would come at a certain opportunity cost and thus be balanced. See Nightwatcher.

I have not thought about healing an enemy minion to proc an effect. I think that is fair game since it costs you something. I guess one could change it to ‘If a friendly minion of general is healed or you heal anything…’.

#5

The problem is that, even if we were to say healing is strong, which in many cases I believe it isn’t, zir’an, and lyonar in general, offer enough ways to heal themselves. I mean, what if 4 winds activated every time the enemy played a spell? The only other class which is oppressive with healing is abyssian, while magmar’s heal is expensive.

#6

Fun fact, she used to only be able to heal allies with her BBS, when they changed it she became more viable (but still trash). As I’ve already stated, I don’t think Healyonar is a problem in the meta, and if it were I think the course of action would be to hit things that proc, such as Lancer, Scintilla and Sunriser (not that I think these are op).
Ziran has enough support as is, wasn’t trying to convey anything different. Only problem with her support is that there aren’t many options.

I don’t think this needs addressing, a card like that would not be played. It’s bad against anyone but Ziran and a dead card against decks with no heal.

#7

You were the one who said that ‘healing is strong in general’. So why would a tech card against it not be played? It cannot be strong and not worth to tech against at the same time.

#8

And here I was hoping you’d suggest retroactively granting it an official keyword. I don’t think this is a good idea for reasons others have already stated.

#9

Let’s say the counter tech is 'whenever your opponent heals something, deal 3 damage to their general.'
You’re playing against Magmar, and they have 3 Earth Sphere in the deck, plus 3 Mystics.

This is a pretty solid scenario for your healing tech, definitely above average. There’s a few likely outcomes, however:

  1. You play the minion, probably on curve, in the back to protect it. You lose out on playing a minion like Sunsteel or Silverguard or Crystal Cloaker that can fight and give you value. Your opponent then removes the minion via Thumping Wave, Plasma Storm, Natural Selection or rush, and continues to heal next turn.
  2. They heal before you have a chance to play the minion, and you replace it because it’s now worthless.
  3. Since it’s tech, it’s only 1 or 2 of, and you never draw it.
  4. You don’t play it because you aren’t sure whether or not Vaath has any heal in his deck. Besides, if it isn’t in his hand it isn’t very relevant, and if he wasn’t going to play it next turn then your anti-heal minion isn’t getting any value anyways.

Seems like a bad card, and that’s with a generous scenario and ability.

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#10

Aren’t there only 3 cards in the game that have the “if anything is healed” text? (Lightchaser, Sunforge Lancer, Sunriser)

Lightchaser doesn’t see much play as it is, so I think that speaks to how much it matters to get healing procs from your opponent. Sunriser can be played around by moving your general/minions out of the way before you heal (or you could kill it if you already have minions near it). Sunforge Lancer is strong, sure, but Zir’an needs a tool to keep her healing from being more than just a stall fest. Besides, after removing the body, dispel can help deal with the buffs (Healynar decks don’t usually run minions large enough to warrant dispel, so you can afford to use it on the general if need be).

If a player chooses to play Four Winds Magi or Shadow Sister Kelaino against Zir’an, I think that speaks more to that player’s understanding of the matchup than anything else. I’m personally glad there’s ONE matchup in which Kelaino can’t just be shoved in a corner.

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#11

Sun Sister Sterope, Excelsious, and soon Gold Vitriol as well. Lucent Beam kinda counts.

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#12

Forgot about Sun Sister and Excelsious. 2 other uncommon cards that demonstrate how low impact specifically an opponent’s healing cards are.

This whole post seems to be geared towards only Sunforge Lancer from what I’ve read.

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#13

And just because you can make up one scenario it means it will be bad?

How about

Moonforge Lancer 2/4, 3 mana, Whenever an enemy general or minion is healed give +1 attack to your general

And then play it against Abyssian with Kelaino on board or Shadowdancer. Then immediately in your turn get value by making a few minion trades. Then the opponent has to waste hard removal on that minion. Still bad? Or how do you think that minion would perform against Ziran?

#14

So there’s two scenarios in which it’s good? Sounds absolutely garbage. I don’t think I’m gonna explain, my last post did a well enough job.

#15

“Enemy healing is balanced since a broken healing card gets punished for it”

Lightchaser and sunriser are fine in my books, since they have a bad statline and need to get up close. Sunforge is literally the same kind of uninteractive garbage that kelaino is. And to top it off, it only loses 1 stat point for its effect. Saying you can dispel ziran is also irrelevant, as she ramps faster than vaath in most cases, and if she runs things like ironcliffes you may need to dispel them to reposition.

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#16

Well I disagree.

Besides what is your point? You think specific tech against heal would not be played so Lyonar should get that for free? Is that it? If tech against heal is so unimportant why care whether it gets removed from Lyonar or not?

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#17

In your scenario, I have to assume that my opponent played Shadowdancer or Shadow Sister Kelaino of their own free will knowing darn well that they could get punished by this “Moonforge Lancer” card. You know, that’s what counterplay is all about (coincidentally, the creators are those at COUNTERPLAY Games).

And as @whyb0t mentioned, it’s situational. Moonforge Lancer seems to be good against maybe 3 out of 12 generals (Zir’an, Lilitthe, Cassyva)That’s assuming they play cards that enable Moonforge Lancer’s effect, which if they understand the matchup, they won’t even play those cards.

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#18

And if they do not play their heals because they are scared of being punished for it that is not bad. Then they might just die to burst. There is a reason why heals are in a deck: Because they are needed. Also if that minion is neutral anyone can run it and they normally do not know who does and who does not. And even if they know you run it you might not have it on hand. Or maybe you do. Mindgames are fun.

Moonforge Lancer also would neat against Songhai playing Four Winds or Disruption Faye wanting to heal up after Cloak. And potential future decks. Who says Vet and the other will never get heals.

Also again, this thread not about the viability of a tech card against heal, but to discuss whether Lyonar should get that tech for free tacked on to cards that are already viable without it.

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#19

It’s hardly fair to say that dispelling Zir’an is irrelevant. That’s just ignoring a response you can make.
An important thing to note with Healynar decks is that they need to utilize their minions in order to keep the board clear and stay stabilized. Shoving a Sunforge Lancer in a corner is easier said than done when you consider that you have one less resource to help you keep your board alive, which is what enables most healing procs in the first place.
Zir’an gets put under tremendous pressure while building up her board because she’s forced to take all of the damage herself. And if she can’t maintain a board, she will get overwhelmed. Putting Sunforge Lancer in the corner is a great risk.

#20

Healynar decks don’t run burst. Their “burst” is quite literally Holy Immolation. That’s it. The Shadowdancers and Shadow Sisters are the cards that enable any potential burst from the general.

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