Highlighting some issues with Vetruvian


#1

Im sorry if this sounds like a rant (it kinda is), but what I really want to do is to just highlight a very apparent and GLARING problem. Vets atm have no ranged removals, as in they are either inefficient or impractical.

  1. Let’s say in a scenario where my opponent summoned a threat in the back lines. And I have a Rasha’s curse, I need additional buffs from anything else to kill anything that’s 3 health and above :bloodmoon, kelaino, fourwinds etc. And also if he did summoned something in the back and but not near themselves, it basically renders the card useless.

  2. What about star’s fury? Well, first off, it has the same problem with rasha, it deals only 2 damage, requires opponent’s bad positioning + additional body nearby the threat hiding in the back lines. And it’s extremely costly, it costs 5 to remove anything in the rear, most of them cost less than 5 : kelaino, four winds, blood moon, furosa, sunforge lancer and the list goes on… ranged threats with or without buffs too).

  3. We have wildfire ankh, but the thing about artifacts is that they are slow, in this fast-paced meta, playing an artifact is already a gamble, more so with one that does not grant attack bonus and needs additional buffs to kill anything more than 2 health. I need falcius for 4 health units, and falcius +bbs for more, or a more costly artifact, 5 mana at least to get the job down. While giving up developing your board, requires positioning and multiple cards + conditions for that to even happen.

  4. Silhoutte tracers dont help much too because the body is not exactly the best, it’s a 2-6 but requires additional hit from anything else to even trade in. And it’s a 4 drop, meaning combo-ing it with falcius + ankh + bbs is impractical, you need 3 cards, bbs off cool down and 3+1+4 = 8 mana (with ankh - 3 mana, pre-equipped) to pull it off, if not, you cant even cast everything on the same turn. And crowding up your 4 drop slots is not the best thing to do, especially a utility 4 drop when 4 drops are important because they decide your transition to midgame, usually 4 drops here have very powerful effects to swing games (like taygete) or just strong in general (sunsteel, abyssal juggernaut, dioltas etc).

  5. Starfire scarab? 5 mana, requires 1 more turn to just let the effect kick in. Also, vulnerable to global removals, dispels.

  6. Pyromancer. Weak 2-1, dies to ping or just any form of damage, requires buff to kill larger threats. In addition, it doesnt help contest the mana tiles in the early turns where it is very important.

  7. Saberspine Tigers? The best candidate atm, but still requires buff to kill anything that has 3 health and above. 2 card combo (with first or second wish etc) and requires at least 3 mana.

  8. Autarch’s gifts is even slower, a 6 mana gamble for the blast artifact. Requires bbs if threat has 4 health above and you got staff of ykir + ankh.

  9. Astral phasing. 3 mana and requires a minion to stick, which si hard enough already and doesnt grant attack bonus, only 5 health and flying, which isnt exactly a removal, and im not even sure is it a defensive card because it requires the minion to fly to something’s face and hit in point blank range, which is susceptible to getting killed off afterwards.

10.Rae was another option people opted for right after the siphon nerf. But Rae is not even a removal, it’s effect is not controllable and is a negligible, 1-1 battle pet.

  1. Sunset paragon, dancing blades, repulsor beast, post-nerf sipohn, shroud, dominate will, entropic decay and lightbender suffers the same problem , which is what I am trying to highlight here, reach. And rainbow pony is just a pseudo- removal, requires things to have equal or higher attack than it’s health, which is not the case for kelaino.

Below are some examples of what I mean, it really is kind of auto concede vs Bloodmoon.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zzz3zxrcf5j12lk/Screenshot%202016-12-19%2013.19.06.png?dl=0
In this screenshot, I equipped Autarch’s gifts with my experimental deck to gamble for a blast artifact. Noticed how one charge was used? I had to move all the way to the left (opponent’s starting field to remove a grovelion. And then he summons a bloodmoon all the way right. I had to sacrifice some of my life total to try to move there while getting punched with a forcefield lilthe, and attempt to chain summon dispel or remove it. While she jsut disengages and summon another threat in the back line. Yeah, fun and interactive.

Here, another one. Just used up one tiger for the first bloodmoon and kept blades in my hand, thinking I could remove a second one if she did had it. Turns out she did and just sealed off my path completely, nothing I could’ve done for me to reach it.

I saved up a shroud and tiger just for something like a bloodmoon, she dropped it and i was happy cause I could remove it, but then I noticed she had enough wraithlings to get killed off to make an impenetrable wall. So my tiger was needless to say, useless in this case. It basically is just answer or die, and Im pretty sure everyone has experienced situations like this (albeit not so extreme) where you cant answer something for a turn or more, and you just lsot because of it. Doesnt matter how you positioned or traded or played the cards, you just didnt draw the exact answers for it. For vets vs bloodmoon or anything out of reach atm, it really is kind of auto-concede.

For other factions, you can maybe stall out to get your removals or inevitable win con. Magmars with their removals or their rush minions. Lyonar has dispel or tiger + roar for argeon. Maybe even dropping an ironcliffe and divine bond next turn. Vanars has more than enough answers. Songhai can onyx bear seal, inner focus something, killing edge it from range or just double phoenix fire. Abyssians have ritual banishing, punish, lure and the best late game (Obliterate, Spectral Revenant, Soul Grimwar etc). Vets literally have nothing that does the job cleanly. They cant even stall out for their nonexistent inevitable win con, they rely on huge gigantic minions, the value game and just overwhelming the board to win. Also, I talk mainly from Sajj’s perspective, board presence is not too huge a deal for Dervish Vets, but all the aforementioned problems still exists,

I was obviously upset after the Siphon nerf and tried to make vet work but it didnt. Raged and switched to Cassy cause I am a fan of control play styles. And I was patiently waiting for the devs to compensate for the uncalled nerf that boggled everyone’s mind. Thinking that the expansion (rise of the bloodborn) had something for Vets, a much more flavorful way of dealing with back line threats. But instead, we get Grandmaster nosh-Rak, amazing card but tbh, it does seem a bit power-creeped, like falcius and pax. It just seems like a desperate attempt to make the faction viable by printing power creeped cards after all the nerfs. And the funny part is every faction has some form of global removal but Vets, isnt it a bit unfair even if it’s for the flavor of the faction’s sake? Shouldnt everything else be adjusted as well?

Vets kind lost pretty much their identity, portal guardian is unplayable, killing part of the initial swarm decks that in beta (iirc)? Siphon nerf killed the control aspect of Vetruvians. Blast is just downright impractical and kind of unplayable atm. Majority of the spells are useless and very conditional.

Another part that boggles me is units that ignore positioning; from ranged units to flying, Kelainos, fourwinds, bloodmoons, blast, rush or rush + frenzy (yes, Jesus Makantor or even holy immo to some extent), and spells even. The cards itself are not my point here (those are for some other threads), point is why have things that ignore positioning and range when you deliberately designed a card game that utilizes the board??

I hope this thread doesnt sound like a rant although I was a bit frustrated when typing it, I didnt exactly gave any suggestions here because I did gave some, and many did gave very interesting thoughts on why things are as they are, or how to make them better.

I was told to be patient and I did, right after the siphon nerf, an uncalled nerf out of nowhere got us wondering that there might be some new tools for vets in the upcoming expansion that called for this nerf. So I got my hopes up and waited for it. Well now the whole thing is out and tbh I wasnt exactly surprised that there wasnt any. And the next balance patch is in mid January and I highly doubt that Siphon will get reworded or there will be a huge readjustment for anything. I guess vets are in the gutter now, like they were, again for the third or fourth time? I lost count.

Like I said, I am just kind of eager to play Sajj again (because I am not a fan Zirix’s swarm play style) without actually being frustrated. I guess I just have to swallow the fact that I am gonna get frsutrated when i do feel like playing her or just play some other faction instead.


#2

Yep. While Zirix can take control of the board with enough Obelisks, Sajj struggles with things at a distance. Sajj’s main gimmick is that she can remove things easily by trading her health. The problem, however, is that there are few cards to support this play style. While Artifact OTK combos also exist, Sajj does not add much to this playstyle, seeing how Her BBS is only slightly better the Zirix’s when surviving until the kill turn.

While the Bloodborn Expansion introduced a lot of cards with Synergy with Sajj, it did not introduce anything that fixes the weaknesses of this archetype. Autarch’s Wish is just a very efficient artifact, Zephyr is more efficient short-distance removal, and Incenera is a better Silhouette Tracer that is in the all-important 5 drop spot.

Out of all these Sajj support cards, few further the playstyle that Sajj seems to be trying to achieve; trading health for board control. In order to do this successfully, you must have a way to heal, and some way to deal with minions that your general cannot immediately smack. Vetruvian is severely lacking in healing. Sure, Sajj can efficiently clear a lot of big minions, but, by doing so, her health total is left very low. Aymara healer is nice and all, but it is quite expensive and is more of a game-swing/ comeback card than a reliable way to heal. Without heals, Sajj’s play style means that you are always playing defensively. In a game where bursting from 12 to 0 is not uncommon, this is a very weak play style.

As for ranged removal, your post sums it up perfectly.

Sajj’s BBS seems to imply that her purpose is to trade health for board control. However, a lack of reliable healing and range makes her extremely vulnerable and easy to counter. So far, all of the Sajj support cards, barring Falcius, allow you to take board control more efficiently, yet do nothing to address these two main problems. I hope that Counterplay adds these much-needed tools to Sajj decks, making her more playable.

What I would do:

Siphon Energy:
2 mana:
Dispel a minion. If it is beside your general, also give it -2/-2

This gives Vetruvian ranged removal while also sticking with the “Get up close with your general” theme. When using this on a far away minion, this is extremely inefficient, compared to things like Sunbloom and Chromatic cold. However, you are greatly rewarded if you manage to get close to an enemy minion, encouraging the “up close” play style that Vetruvian is going for while not making ranged value generators, like Bloodmoon Priestess and Decimus, instant game-overs.

Fountain of Youth
2 mana
At the end of each turn, restore 1 health to your general

I have argued in the past that Keliano is only broken because other factions lacked a way to sustain heals. The only cards that came close were Shadowdance, while required setup, and Four Winds Magi, which requires cards. Keliano requires virtually nothing to continuously heal you. As such, I believe that for other decks to compete with Abyssian in the lategame, they must have some way to heal, or else they will slowly loose health while Abyssian heals health back.

Sand Sister Saon
4 mana, 3/3
Opening gambit: Equip a Time Shroud to your general

Time Shroud
artifact: Whenever your general takes damage, restore that much health to them.

Sad Sister Saon has long fallen into the category of cards with excellent sprites that see no play. To make matters worse, Drogon, the new Magmar legendary, is infinitely more powerful than her. Drogon does the exact same thing as Saon past the first BBS turn. It also grants your general the ability to deal 6 to minions. On top of that Drogon also allows your generals to deal damage to generals, and has better stats for the same cost. This just makes Saon seem even weaker. As such, I would love to see a rework to this card, especially because Vetruvian is lacking in good in faction 4 drops.


#3

Funny thing is that noone will go on to acknowledge this, all i gotta say is that lyonar has sunbloom and we have siphon. But yeah feels nice to be the dev’s sandbox atleast its flavourful


#4

Hey! :slight_smile: Interesting discussion, I’ll post an appropriate some time soon when I’m done with these blasted exams. But I do want to bring up one removal you missed.

It’s not helpful as Sajj but as Zirix you’re almost always going to have a Obelisk up which turn it into three mana remove any utility minion or if you have an Iron dervish remove a utiltly minion and leave behind a flying dervish.


#5

Stay on your side of battlefield and use Dust Walkers instead of Blades :smile:. Also, you now have Incinera, you know


#6

A protected Bloodmoon Priestess has but 1 true answer in all of Vetruvian:
Circle of Desiccation.

The rest needs an extra turn or a certain board-state.

See my thread on it here: Vetruvian Siphon Nerf: situation after some time? + specific situation example

I think Vetruvian is too weak versus that scenario. I would like to see Excogitator’s suggestion about Siphon Energy or something like that to be made reality.


#7

So do I, or maybe making a,card that gives blast for.one turn that’s cheap so it’s practical. It’s what I always wanted but I never got to try any of the fun, broken stuff vet had back then. I love their flavors, I didn’t liked the fact they were broken of course, but they’re just downright unplayable instead of fine tuned.


#8

I hate how this is a “Zirix” card tbh. I want Sajj to be abme to use stw too because it’s obviously a faction card. Now they just made it dervish only.


#9

Saon needs to be better stated considering vets need stuff to stick to even progress into later turns. make t a 3-5? But I like the idea for time shroud. Maybe make it " if your general kills an enemy minion, restore health equal to the damage taken". So sajj won’t run away, ankh+ other stuff and hit you from a distance while healing, cause that’s exactly the pain we’re having right now haha. And the fact that it’s an artifact makes sure that it has limited usage.

Siphon sounds cool too, I would be glad if we have at least something like that. My own spin for it would be like what people suggested, just bump the mana cost to 1, that’s it. Or to make it more flavorful, maybe make it like some guy that suggested it to blast range. My own spin for it would be maybe being able to enemies 3 tiles away from your general or your minions. So you can kind of like “extend your reach”. Of course it has to be 0ana because you might have to chain summon or make it cost more but give more, like maybe additional draw or additional debuffs of -1 -1 like you suggested.


#10

Let’s hope for the best, I’m currently kind of pessimistic about it but let’s just hope.


#11

But @snowwy why would we EVER worry about ranged threats when they wouldn’t be a problem if we, you know, positioned correctly? You know, just like Magmar positions carefully when they thumping wave something, or plasma storm your board? Or Songhai when they must consider their board position oh so carefully when they’re trying to decide whether to use that phoenix fire or not? Lyonars infinite consideration before casting sunbloom. Abyssians incredibly difficult decision of whether to use something as mana inefficient as punish? Or Vanar’s unfathomable diffficulty when it comes to casting something as situational as chromatic cold?

If you didn’t know what sarcasm was before, well you do now.

On a serious note, you pretty much nailed it one, I actually have nothing to add, this sums it up perfectly.


#12

Well… babye Duelyst… Cya the next expansion when CP finally decides to push Vetruvian back up again.

It’s bad enough every faction (except maybe Songhaï) got its fair share of very good/ broken cards (looking at you entropic gaze), but Vetruvian really got shafted so hard it becomes insulting… Even the grandmaster is the least flavorful of all… I’m so so disappointed.
And to think I ever thought that CPG knew what they were doing and the Siphon and Kron nerf was all part of a great plan to introduce something new to vetruvian.


#13

Welps, Im trying to climb with literally the worst general atm, Sajj. Oh did I mentioned how ridiculous a control faction has no heals, no ultimate win con, no ranged removals? Yeah, fun.


#14

Yeap, that’s exactly what i thought. And the Siphon nerf was so sudden without any compensation, I thought they had something that will cause the interaction broken or just wanted to push the theme of “Vitruvian” - general-centered play style. But nope, got slapped in the face, again.


#15

Zephyr is pretty nice and Nosh-Rak is insane though.


#16

I think the biggest thing that you pointed out is Sajj’s lack of a win condition. I feel that in this expansion, CPG released cards in order to support a lesser played archetype/general, such as Kaleos, Starhorn, and Zir’an support. While not the flashiest expansion, the introduction of Blood Surge and ways to support the underplayed archetypes have been helpful (to some more than others).

Now don’t get me wrong; cards like Zephyr, Nosh-Rak, Divine Spark, and Incinera are all very good cards to help support some of the strengths weaknesses of Vetruvian in an indirect way (general surrounded/board, card draw, range), but what I think the main problem with (Control in particular) Sajj is her lack of a win condition.

To compare, lets look at some of the other factions’ win conditions:
Lyonar: Divine Bond, Holy Immolation, Celerity (to an extent), Roar/Argeon’s BBS, Lightchaser (to an extent), and the (new) Excelsious
Songhai: All form of burst spells, including Spiral Technique and Phoenix Fire, Buff Spells like Killing Edge, Chakri Avatar, Grandmaster Zendo, Hamon Bladeseeker, Reva’s BBS, and Onyx Jaguar (to an extent)
Abyssian: Deathfire Crescendo, Spectral Revannent, Vorpal Reaver, Obliterate, Ghost Azalea, Blood Baronette (though uncommon), Void Steel, Abyssal Juggernaught, and the new Grandmaster Variax
Magmar: All faction rush minions, Thumping Wave, Mandrake, Bounded Life Force, Overload/Vaath’s BBS, and now Rancour, Drogon, and ALL DRAW SHENANIGANS
Vanar: Winter’s Wake, Warhawk/Faie’s BBS, Grandmaster Embla (to an extent), Wailing Overdrive, Vespyr cards (like Iceblade Driad and Huldra), and Frostfire (to an extent)

Now lets look at all of Vetruvian’s current Win conditions, split up into specific sections

Dervish Win conditions: Fireblaze Obelysk, Star’s Fury, Whispers of the Sand, Dunecaster, and Nimbus
Artifact Win conditions: Auroras Tears, Time Maelstrom, Falcius (to an extent), Spinecleaver/Bloodfire Totems, and now Auturach’s Gift (to an extent)
‘Neutral’ Win conditions: Aymara Healer (to an extent, like how do you even spell it’s name off hand!?), and now Grandmaster Nosh-Rak

One of the things I noticed from this is the overall lack of solid win conditions that Sajj has access to, and although she has powerful ones like Spincecleaver, Aymara, and Nosh-Rak, (ignoring their weakness to dispel and removal, which many win conditions have), ALL of them are either 5 mana or more, which I think is a key reason as to why it is hard to build a solid, S-rank deck with Sajj. I believe this weakness is further amplified due to her weakness with health management and dealing with minions at a distance (specifically those who generate value at a distance), making it harder for her to effectively deal with the late game.

Of course, Auroras Tears and Time Maelstrom are both strong artifact win conditions, but have seen better usage in artifact combo decks due to how hard it is to manage artifacts with so many ways to ping the enemy general in game, hence why in this month’s design contest I proposed a minion to help deal with the main weakness with artifacts, like Falcius can.

Overall, I think that the intention and purpose of this expansion was there, yet I think that more testing on Sajj has to been done (it has only been about 4-5 days since the expansion’s release), and see how Nosh-Rak can be used to help improve specifically Control Sajj decks, and what ways can deal with value minions at a distance like Bloodmoon Priestess using cards like Wildfire Ankh and Incinera, yet I would like a way to incorporate more early game win conditions (such as Auroras Tears and Time Maelstrom) into current Sajj decks, especially with the release of cards like Zephyr, Nosh-Rak, and Autrich’s gift.

Edit: Sorry for long post, I tend to ramble about things when it comes to factions


#17

Don’t forget the new and improved blood fire totem artifact and zephyr combo. I’d like to see Abyssian wall chezzers get past that (jk please don’t have an answer to that)


#18

I couldnt agree more. I was hyped for this expansion to Fix this issues with vetruvian and nothing. I still like daervish vet but I’m switching to lyonar because it literally never gets a true nerf and its strong af.


#19

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