You’re assuming that they’re just healing. You’re forgetting that every time they heal, they are potentially buffing Lightchaser, getting +1 Attack from Sunforge, dealing damage through Sunriser, and potentially buffing a future Excelsious. It’s rarely just healing for the sake of healing.
Heal Lyonar is Great for Duelyst: A Hypothesis
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Yeah cause u know we all want our games to be over by turn 4.
Come on, you know that’s not what I’m suggesting. Please argue in good faith, I certainly do.
I think this is a fair point (as are your others), but I ultimately disagree with your conclusion. Tempo >value and healing doesn’t stop the enemy’s momentum from stacking up. Sure it’s great against Saberspine Tiger, but that’s a card that should be reined in anyway! It’s possible that Healyonar has been overtuned, but I haven’t been gotten that impression so far. Then again I don’t run the netdecks so what do I know. And if any deck is going to be on top I’d rather it be a non-cancer one like Healyonar, personally.
I’m sorry, but that is a total misrepresentation of the Healyonar experience. You typically need to be using those minions to control the board and get them damaged to use Afterglow on them, and even if you were to do that it’s no different from the vast majority of effect-based minions.
[quote=“tsevech, post:10, topic:8341, full:true”]I’m fine with Healyonar and I do agree with most of what you say. Just two comments:
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Though Healyonar decks do not have an inevitable win condition, they do run Meltdown most often. They still get crushed by real control decks, so this is not a big concern
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I don’t think Healyonar is that hard to play. Lyonar have tons of efficient minions of relatively low cost. It is not horrible sometimes to dump your hand to fill the board and use an insane card like Trinity Oath to replenish your hand[/quote]
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I haven’t been coming across Meltdown at all, but that’s probably been my personal experience. Fair point!
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Maybe I’m just stupid but I’ve had a lot of difficulty getting good with Healyonar. Trinity Oath is a great card but it also means I’m spending most of a turn as a sitting duck; healing for 3 isn’t keeping me alive. If I was able to build a board the turn before that’s an indication I was already winning or I wouldn’t be able to afford the tempo loss.
I don’t have anything to add, just wanted to say I think you make great points against @seraphicreaper’s concerns. You’re right to make a distinction between aggro and tempo; I failed to take that into account.
PS: We really need a thread on Trinity Oath to try and figure out if we think the card is actually a problem. It’s complicated enough to warrant its own thread, methinks.
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But if i have a sunforge lancer, sunriser and Exelsious on board, healing isn’t your main concern.
Then again, are you telling me that Exelsious is good enough so see serious play? Lightchaser is usuallly a conditional windblade adept, and when it spires out of control, it means that i have spend A LOT of recources on healing. Sunriser is just a 6-7 mana holly imolation ( in best case) and 4 health isnt that hard to remove.
Unfortunately I have to agree, zir’an on a heal deck becomes the semi-goddess of the late game and there is no aggro that is able to stop her (I tried and failed, maybe the songhai can), as she is the perfect counter for that.
PS: If that makes control decks viable I will not embrace it, I’ll marry this.
The infamous aggromar RNG hater, who am I trying to fool? nobody’s even read this
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True, but you’re also assuming that they have something on the board that benefits from healing which they might not have or I’ve already removed. Most of the time if they want to heal something they also have to play something at a lower mana cost to be able to do both, which usually makes the minion that their played weaker compared to my minion drop or I can outnumber by playing more than one minion. If their only heal for that turn then most of the time its rarely done much other than maybe delay the game a turn, which could be in their favour or not depending on the late game of the decks and cards in hand.
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I was being more sarcastic with my first remark if Anything. Imo I’d rather have a fast game then a short one. The more the game goes on the more time to u lose, the more upset you will be about a loss.
I find it funny just 3 months ago ppl were saying Zirians bad… But now a few good cards will do that.
Trinity needs to be at least 1 mana more its to strong in its current state I would say.
5 mana Oath wouldn’t hinder Zi’ran much anyway, I think. Zi’ran already lacks the capacity to use it and generate as much threat on the same turn as Argeon can, and it is mostly a way to recover your hand from combo turns (as well as a trigger for your minions)
The problem is that that just isn’t true. The value of 3 health (scintilla) can be directly translated into board presence, e.g killing off a hearthsister with your general. Similarly, lancer provides a way of reducing 2 damage when clearing something like a mystic. Also, you don’t need to trade with those minions to get a heal, you can trade with others. Obviously your own bias is getting in the way of the fact that your general is a clearing tool when you play healyonar, as the repercussions for doing so are minimal.
That being said, cards liks sunforge lancer are almost always played behind the general as an early play, much like ranged minions, but without the squishiness.
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I’ve been playing Zir’an since I started almost a year ago, and am confident in my opinion on this. It’s possible my experience doesn’t translate to everyone’s ofc. Lancer is often the exception, I’ll agree to that. Afterglow only works on minions, so yes, I need to bring my minions into harm’s way to make things work.
By design, CPG has made healing more per mana than damage. When this can be carried out not on just one occurrance (to alleviate our outvalue enemies out-of-hand burst) but on every turn, you’re constantly outvaluing opponent efforts on the most standard of plays. This is what Scintilla vs. Whiplash represents so nicely. A whole post I did on pt per mana:
There are overlapping reasons that I’ll go over, but Healyonar isn’t good only against burst/aggro but can also play the control game, and this is the root reasons here.
Than it wouldn’t be in the game. Healing lets you swing trades. If Sajj had more healing available to her, her BBS would become much more of a threat and for opponents to take into consideration.
You just compared a 1 mana card to a 4 mana. But what’s funny is that EVEN STILL falls short. You can’t ignore Elucidator’s gambit. Magmar plays Elucidator (-4 hp to themselves), hits you (-5). You use Sundrop (+5) and lets say WILLINGLY choose to hit Elucidator again to clear it (-5).
You just spent 1 mana 1 card to his 4 mana 1 card with a total hp difference between you and their general of ONE. Is this not mind boggling to you?!
Honestly, I’ll continue this in another reply, as I want this point to really stand out.
ONE mana and 1 card to his FOUR mana 1 card with a total hp difference between you and their general of ONE. This also considers that Lyonar/Ziran is willing to eat the extra 5 elucidator damage to the face!
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Yes, but scintilla procs the heal regardless of whether you heal a minion, which is my point.
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The general is part of the board, a factor that shouldn’t be ignored.
Healing outvalues damage. See my previous comments and link.
Personally find it funny that the suggested general to use besides cassyva is lyonar.
To bring it back around, the unique features that Lyonar’s healing provides is it’s offensive synergy. Healing with Lyonar isn’t just healing anymore, it’s healing and an offensive result (+dmg to your general, 2 dmg aoe, +3 hp to general which leads to more general atk’ing). Healing already provided effeciency vs burst/aggro, but when it synergizes with offensive results, it becomes not only a swing gain, but a heavily strong advantage. It may be this reason why Healyonar handles the spectrum from aggro to control that I personally experience (as a Faie player myself, which like Sajj, would greatly love that extra healing).
After playing for a bit more, I feel that healing Lyonar is fine. The key to beating Zir’an is squeezing as much value out of each card as possible. Zir’an’s main draw in the lategame is Trinity Oath and meltdown. Oath extends the game while simultaneously giving her a card advantage while meltdown is just a big dude that you have to worry about. The way I beat Oath is to make each of my card be worth many of her’s. For example, mid ranged threats like Nimbus, Frostiva, and Vorpeal Reaver can trade for many, many of her cards, nullifying her card advantage. Remeber: healing Lyonar’s lategame bombs are very predictable and easy to counter, boiling down to Meltdown, Ironcliff, and maybe Pandora for the mirror.
Personally, I think that Healing is only seen as overpowered since so few decks can do it. Other control decks like Faie and Sajj need to cram in a bunch of neutrals, which even then are not too reliable and can fizzle in the lategame. Zir’an not only has the best healing in the game, but also counters Abyssian’s second best healing with things like Sunforge Lancer and Sunriser. Now, Cassyva can still get an upper hand on Zir’an by running threats like Vorpeal Reaver and Obliterate, since healing is useless against things that just flat-out kill you. Control Faie only scraps by due to having good removal and Sajj… Her shtick is to trade health for board presence. However, other generals like Zir’an and Vaath do that just as well, if not better, while also having more reliable healing and removal options.
However, I do feel that Trinity Oath should not be so powerful simply because it empowers tempo Argeon so much. Right now, Argeon is one of the top decks simply by playing things that are better than the things that the opponent plays. Instead of taking advantage of healing synergy like Zir’an, Argeon’s plan is just to put as many above curve Lyonar minions on the board as possible and win from there. I have far less sympathy for this deck than I do for Zir’an. So, I hope that nerfs to Lyonar should target Argeon tempo builds, not Zir’an.
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All right, take abbysian 3/3 battle pet. Or any 2 mana minion. I took elucidator bacuse it represents out of hand burst and even then sundrop isnt that good.[quote=“seraphicreaper, post:30, topic:8341”]
If Sajj had more healing available to her, her BBS would become much more of a threat
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That has nothing to do with healing but with vetruvian ability to spend health.
IF your minion has high attack to matter and high health count to survive the trade AND this has to be on your turn so you can heal it back up. Doesnt look like you have played with healing enough to understand it.[quote=“seraphicreaper, post:30, topic:8341”]
you’re constantly outvaluing opponent efforts on the most standard of plays. This is what Scintilla vs. Whiplash represents so nicely.
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All right, let me explain it once again. If you dont want to close the game right now, scintilla does nothing, zero impact. And if you are in different corners of the board, whiplash threatens your opponent, forcing you to use your scintilla effect every turn, while scintilla is just a reactive mesure.[quote=“seraphicreaper, post:30, topic:8341”]
but can also play the control game
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Healyonar’s only purpose is to go to late game. there is no point in stoling out the game for no reason. Control is the core of the healyonar consept. But Healyonar looses to overgreedy control decks. Thats the point.
Healyonar is practicly a synonym of control.
People complaining about control
People supporting aggro
People not wanting 10 minute games
People complaining of a late game
People not supporting a strategic deck
The more ziran i see, the less aggro mag i see, the more cards i am allowed to play each game. Thank u cpg
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I ain’t in here complaining about zirans, I’m just telling people it’s not as hard as they’re making it out to be.
Personally I’ve been seeing WAY too many heal zi’ran’s in ladder (diamond) to be specific and I hate it. I understand and promote anti aggro/control decks however trinity of oath to me is a bit much. Control decks should outlast for a finisher not outlast to literally restart and keep stalling/buffing/healing
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I’m going to avoid drawing this out. The OP brought up why Healyonar is great for Duelyst, and I provided numerical evidence of the dangers that it brings.
“to matter” is subjective, but even 2 atk is relevant. High health: The majority (maybe all?) of Healyonar’s minions have 4 health, which is substantial and can survive most trades.
Except it doesn’t. Scintilla heals 3, whiplash damages 2, which means you need scintilla’s proc every 2 times for every 3 times whiplash uses theirs. It’s reactive, the whole healing archetype is, it’s healing. The reactive strength is greater than the proactive damage. This is an interesting occurance to take note, as oftentimes reactive card design provides a punishment for active reactively (oftentimes less effective, weaker bodies, etc.)
I’m still unclear about what point you are making and where I’m wrong with things. I haven’t said it’s broken or that it needs to be nerfed, but have provided an explanation/theory for why healyonar is at the top, and the dangers it’s current format poses to Duelyst. (I’ve marked my frustrations with it most assuredly, and I do hate it, but my aim was to provide the reasoning for Healyonar’s performance in the current meta.)
I guess that Healyonar will find no place in control meta with the cards we have today. Its more of a temporary thing in aggro meta. I am sorry if i missed the topic and went too far off.
I just believe that even now healyonar does not have 60% or more winrate against aggro (with the lists ive tried) so there isnt much point in playing it instead of other aggro (aside from personal preferences). The part of Zir’an’s popularity lies in the fact that she is considered to be the weakest general, and pelople like toying with that. But again, thats all my personal thoughts.
I really dont believe that healyonar will ever be an issue based on reasoning @thematsjo gave above, but you’ve made me think more about the spiring potential of healyonar cards.
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Apologies as well. I know the discussion became more frustrating for me and I wanted to best avoid making any personal comments, as that’s unnecessary. 
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