Duelyst Forums

Grandmaster Variax

#129

Variax itself barely ever lives a turn,changing the card makes it pointless.Simple up the cost means it can only come out at 6 mana with normal ramp.At 6 mana we are use to things like Archon Spellbinder and Vorpal.

The open gambit is fine ability to ramp it out at 5 normally with no downside isnt.At 8 if you get God draw you can still ramp it at 5, just like if you get double flash reincarnation you can ramp out an elder going first.But every faction has a version of that the person just gets lucky.

#130

I think the problem is that there is a fine line between powerful and OP. And Variax stands right on it. I don’t want it nerfed but here’s how it should be ao it’s not dead, nor OP.
7
6/7

Lilith BBS: Make all your Wraithlings furioua. Summon 2 Wraithlings nearby.
A simple change of order, but it changes how Variax would be played.

Cassyva BBS: It’s fine. It’s rare that a Creep player gets to lay more than 5 creeps if he doesn’t draw early Crawlers or anything like this. At worst, make the Fiends 3/3.

2 Likes
#132

Sigh. Did I say I think it is OP? I did not make my suggestion based on what I want. I made them because should this card be nerfed, what I suggest is what I think is the best solution. I do not make suggestions to satisfy myself, because I play Variax, but because I think this is what’s best for everyone.

#133

Sorry, i just get irritated because balance patch something gets nerfed, then something else is strong and is cried for nerfs, and the cycle continues until we need an expansion to increase the power levels again. Anyway, I think I got a bit carried over, will delete the last post and be done with it.

1 Like
#134

How about making the effects only last for a limited use? That way, multiple copies of variax will not only help for consistensies, but also reloading the awesome BBS if they were to be dropped the second or third times?

#135

Finally lost a game to it, but honestly, I’d messed up the opening. If one nerf was seen as necessary, I’d propose only the summoned wraithlings being furious. But I’m still not sure that’s even required.

#136

Thats why i said if the effect was bound to Variax instead of being an OG lol. Atm it might be broken, but mainly due to the interaction with darsac, since Variax Cassy doesn’t really exist, since 7 Mana variax is just too slow. But removing the Og is a HUGE nerf and would make it unplayably slow.

2 Likes
#137

I agree, removing the OG would kill the card. Still, the card has a problem I believe. If played in Cassyva, it requires a setup to get value and ramping it would serve nothing. In Lilithe, instead, it can get crazy value with no setup, hence ramping breaks the card.

I think Lilithe’s enhanced BBS is too awesome. For instance, I think that making it produce 4 wraithlings would be very strong, yet counterable by a proper control deck. No control deck in the game can stop a swarm of 5/5 minions.

1 Like
#138

i know it’s been said, but i think it should only spawn one Wraithling instead of two, other than that it’s fine as is.

#139

What cleanly removes 2 5/5 from the board with no board yourself?

Vanar
Enfeeble + Skorn/frostburn

Vet
Circle of desiccation

Songhai
Battle Panda+ deathstrike seal+inner focus
Pandemonium+ ghostlighting+ crescent spear

Magmar
Metamorphosis+ flash reincarnation+Skorn/spirit harvestor or kinetic equilibrium
Flaming Stampede

Abyss

Obliterate(enough creep) or Necrotic Sphere(if you are close enough)
Special Mention Echoing Shriek+Skorn

That should tell people how hard it is to stop Variax’s Swarm.One faction(lyonar) doesn’t even a dependable way to remove 2 5/5 (holy immo+Skorn??). If you need a reason for why when this card comes out early it is stupid this is a big reason.

1 Like
#140

From what I’ve seen playing Variax decks so far. They are fairly powerful but require decent late game. You need to have at least a mildly strong board presence for it to really win you games.

The decks normally lose to magmar very easily just because by turn 4 they normally have some absurd 8+ stat monster about to rip your face off. I’d honestly rate Silithar Elder far more effective. Just because if I summon Variax and they summon Silithar Elder at the same time within 2 turns you’re dealing with something like 5 6/6s that exponentially increase in numbers and have to be killed twice Vs 2 5/5s every round. Varaix is linear not exponential. So to beat that you need blood moon priestess or you’ll still be wiped out even with board advantage. 30/70 win/loss rate on average.

Songhai will also normally wipe this deck out pretty fast just due to being able normally shave something like 17-20 HP off of lilithe with some crazy burst damage within three or four turns. On the other hand if they don’t end the game quickly they’ll tend to go down pretty hard. 60/40 win/loss rate.

Lyonar normally comes down to how many provokers they have to play and how fast they rush down. If they can out maneuver you then normally they’ll lock the deck down hard enough that the 5/5s get wiped out even if you summon them. If they don’t keep the pressure up though they are pretty toast. On the other hand if they get within range of holy immolation within 2-3 turns they’ll normally clear your board presence and win out. 60/40 win/loss rate.

Vanar is kind of very swingy. They either pull out the exact control cards they need and lock you down. Or they don’t and in that case you can normally beat them out. 50/50 win loss rate for me so far.

Vetruvian is just straight out screwed unless they either get a very lucky double Stars’ Fury, Their grandmaster, Or they load up on blast while I’m low on removal. Otherwise unless they prove absurdly skilled at positioning I can take them out easily/ 90/100 win/loss.

I’d say it’s a top tier card. But it tends to be too slow to win you games unless you build your deck around it. In which case you risk not drawing it fast enough to matter and getting wiped by turn 4 by an aggro deck and even if you get it on the field it takes a while to really get it going. So most skilled players can normally lock you down hard enough to win out.

2 Likes
#141

Vanar can just stall while it warbirds lilithe. Vet can blast them from afar or use stars fury and go face, songhai can just ignore the board like they always do and deal face damage, magmar can do the latter as well, and lyonar can make swarm’s early game complete and utter hell with their overstatted minions and AOEs such as tempest and holy immo, as well as stop lilithe from running with provokes to force her into a position than wasting at least 2 turns for variax to come into effect means her death.
Also, the times where the 5/5s come into effect with no board are only if you have nothing to play while lilithe proceeds to play variax and then summon the wraithlings, in which case you would have lost to pretty much anything.
In some cases you will not stop Variax’s swarm, she’s designed to win that fight. Its like trying to outrush magmar or win a ranged game vs songhai, why would you do that? Maybe you lose vs variax because you desperately try to beat her in what she’s strongest. Instead of trying to stop the swarm, focus on killing whichever general is out which is much easier.

#142

If you play a control deck against abyssian with variax you pretty much auto lose except if the opponent makes several misplays or they have terrible luck with draws.

I play control style/long decks and every time I go up against abyssian with variax I pretty much always lose except for when the aforementioned scenarios occur. I’m in diamond. My buddies in gold/diamond all say the same thing.

This card needs to be nerfed. It’s too op. end of. I shouldnt have to be considering revamping my entire playstyle and making a bunch of new decks based on one card.

1 Like
#143

If it is so OP, why does only one of the top 10 ladder players use variax? If control loses, why does control faie decks have the highest winrate?
"I dont want to build thinking that this card exists and might face it. Nerf!"
You dont need a new playstyle, just play better.

#144

Nah. You and the top 10 ladder and the extreme minority. everyone else(who isnt abyssian or deluded) agrees with me.

1 Like
#145

I wouldn’t mind a nerf, ramped Variax is super strong, but it’s inconsistent, and I can’t think of any nerf that would keep Variax viable.

Edit: Variax is a card that seems incredibly op, but won’t see much play at all in S-Rank. It’s true value lies only with Lilithe, and only with darkfire sacrifice. If they’re running sacrifice that requires setup. Lilithe has and always will benefit from a developed board. Clear her tiny minions to keep her from using deathwatch/darkfire sacrifice.

If they darkfire at the end of their turn, Variax is likely their only play next turn. Punish them. If they get Variax out early, bbs is likely their only play the turn after. Punish them. It’s not impossible to deal with.

1 Like
#146

One thing I agree on is that if a card is too oppressive for the majority of the playerbase then somehting may be done. However, if a nerf happenned to occur, it should be minor enough that the core style and overall viability should not be hit hard, but just enough to decrease the number of decks built around it and increase the margin of response. If i could decide and a nerf had to occur, i would add a bit of text that said “this card always costs 7 mana” or something. That way the margin to fight it is enough and most control decks can also access their win conditions around at that time. The only deck that i think really loses badly against variax without incredible draws is healyonar, the rest have pretty good ways to deal with it. However I still stand with that the card is fine and the meta just needs to settle a bit more and will fix itself in a bit more time, and that once the new toy syndrome is finally over it will be easier to see how things truly are

#147

Several ideas on how to nerf Variax:

  • 8 mana 8/8, same ability.

This makes it so that it is much harder to ramp out with Darkfire Sacrifice, since the difference between 5 and 6 mana is huge while that between 7 and 8 is smaller.

  • Change Darkfire sacrifice to: 0 mana, destroy a friendly minion. Your next minion costs 1 less. Draw a card at the end of your turn

This makes the sacrifice more consistently strong and less “turn 2 big drop, oops I win”

  • Change Lilith’s AWSOME BBS to “Summon two harvesters with attack and health equal to the number of friendly wraithlings that died this game”

Like Cassyva’s upgraded BBS, this one would require more setup, being useless if ramped out too early with no support. However, its power in the lategame would be increased, just like Cassyva’s upgraded BBS. This would make the Variax + Darkfire Sacrifice interaction much less broken in Lilith.

5 Likes
#148

Variax or its support cards need to be changed because it’s not fun to play against.

The deck isn’t the most super consistent OP thing ever; but it is a hard counter to lots of strategies and that isn’t healthy for the game as a whole.

Personally I think Variax should be:
-OG: Your Bloodborn spell becomes "friendly Wraithlings become furious"
to bring it in line with Cassy; give up the ability to generate resources in order to get more value from those resources.

Alternatively:
-Make the effect dispelable on the general (nerfs Geomancer too though)
-Nerf DFS
-Make it cost more to hinder ramping

1 Like
#149

Don’t neft DFS. That card is the cornerstone of a deck type that has never been an issue.

The Lillithe BBS mutation just needs to be brought down in level with the Cass one.