I think you mean “All adjacent minions and generals”. The way you worded it, face damage happens across the board too
Frostbone Naga and Gnasher, both need a Redsign where they cost 3 Mana, not 4, so they aren't in competition with Blistering Skorn post Patch! (EDIT: Nightsorrow Assassin should also be adjusted to 2/3 in comparison to these suggestions for balance.)
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Yeah man, that IS what I meant, good save. Sorry I’m trying to edit things to catch up with my sloppy typing. =P
The problem with topics like this is that people “put thought” into these ideas, but rarely is that thought critical enough. Moreover, surprise, surprise the Abyssinian main fails to properly consider how another class might use minion post change.
To wit, I’m the first person in this threat to mention inner focus, and that is fucking disgusting. You want to give songhai a 3 drop that can do 6 face AND clear a minion or two?
Did it ever occur to you that Gnasher has 3 health precisely because 2 health is better? Maybe, just Maybe Gnasher was a 3drop at some point in development and the balance testers spotted a problem, and thus made it cost 4.
To be fair, OP, my comments are more a reflection for my general contempt for such posts, please don’t take this personally. I just get annoyed when people can spend a few mins “thinking” and suddenly feel that they have the uncanny ability to balance the game.
On a related note; why are people obsessed with buffing bad cards? whats wrong with them just existing?
For anyone that wants to learn why bad cards can and should suggest I’d recommend Mark Rosewalters magic article(s) on the subject – they are merely a google search away.
Essentially OP, you need to prove two statements:
- That the suggested changes lead to a better, more balanced game.
- Justify why we should buff bad cards in the first place. (Or in another words; why buff old cards when you can just print new ones?)
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Lad, ye hafta understand one thing :
Those cards are fine as they are.
I can see how you came to think why they are underpowered compared to Skorn, but they are not.
I’m going to explain, unlike our dear raqyee, for I think that once it’s done, we can just end all this nonsense.
There was once a time were they all had 4 3/3 and Skorn was 3 mana. You know that. They were all perfectly balanced, because of their POTENTIAL. iMO.
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Skorn deals 1 damage to everyone. Usually it translates as 4-7 AoE, including your minions and generals, because there usually are 2-3 minions per general on the board. Then Skorn can attack for 3 two times. So he deals a total of 10-13. That sounds like a lot, right ? Sure, but remember that your units too are included there.
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Naga. Usually placed between 2-3 enemy minions/general. Deals them 2 damage. So it makes for a total of 4-6 damage. Then Naga hits two times for 3. Total of usually 10-12. Sounds like a lot to you ? Hell it is, because you won’t usually place it so it hits you.
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Gnasher. Deathwish deals 3 AoE to enemy only. Rarely seen dealing damage to more than 2 or 1 enemies. You know the thing now, 3-6 then 9-12. That’s still pretty nice.
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New Skorn. 4 4/4. The TOTAL for him is of 22-25. He can POTENTIALLY deal 12 damage by trading. But this never happens so it’s more like : 18-22. Sounds like an awful lot ? Again, no. You hit your own units too. He will usually deal 10-15 damage to your opponent.
Those are all pretty rough estimations but you get my point. They’re perfectly fine. Voilà, baguette !
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Just going to point out how funny that would be, because how much weaker that “nightmare” scenario is than everything else that Songhai ALREADY does with IF. I get what you mean, but there’s no need to be hyperbolic about something so small as “combos better with IF”, so does half of the rest of the game.
Yeah, your right. Giving Songhai a turn 1/2 Makantor MOTHER FUCKING WARBEAST AIN’T A BIG DEAL.
But wait, maybe I’m not being fair. Makantor is one card, focus + Gnasher is 2 cards and that makes all the difference.
Okay okay, let me edit the post:
Yeah, your right. Giving Songhai a turn 1/2 Holy MOTHER FUCKING IMMOLATION AIN’T A BIG DEAL.
Okay serious mode: you might be right — it might be fine to give songhai such a combo. The real criticism I have is that people have suggested changes to Gnasher without even considering how it may interact with inner focus.
Given the design of Songhai, maybe doing 6 face dmg alone is enough to justify Gnasher in aggro list. You wanna give that list AOE too? (also note Sword of Mechazor has been used in non mech songhai lists in the past. so no, I don’t actually think I’m over-reacting here.)
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To both of your points, these cards are Neutrals, like Skorn, which would receive a lot of universal play. Magmar for example needs better 3 drops (which it’s sorely lacking.)
I’m not trying to take this from one angle, even though I main Abyssian. I generally think there is still an illussion of choice between these two cards and Skorn, even post patch. If anything, there’s an even greater conflict since they cost the same, and in almost all decks where you would pick one, you will wind up picking Skorn.
Duelyst is fundamentally different from Magic the Gathering, which I have played since Beta/Revised days mind you. There are no restricted cards, and cards are constantly redesigned to tweak balance as well as create more diversity within the meta. I am relatively new to this game, unlike MTG, but I noticed with minimal research how many changes have been implemented from the start in terms of card stat-lines, costs, and abilities.
Respectfully, Magic can’t be play-tested in real time like this, at least not until they swap to digital releases prior to physical print releases. So I don’t think cards need to remain generically “bad” or “worse”, especially when implimenting changes due to concensus and play-testing is far easier. Counterplay have been good about listening to the player base, and no suggestion I’ve made has been to simply make something stronger or weaker for no reason. I like cards being useful in a variety of ways to promote a wider variety of competitive decks.
I do think you’d see game balance improved, and different kinds of mana curves around removal would emerge. I’m for eliminating the illusion of choice man, and to a lesser extent, trying to make things work with a bit more synergy with other related cards if it’s something not so obvious, but minor to tweak (as per my suggestions for Reaper of the Nine Moons so it would work better with Consuming Rebirth in my first thread, which a lot of people label as a nerf in order to make both cards synergize better for practical and tactical use).
So, uh. What would you do with a turn 1 Holy Immolation anyways? You can’t net cards, only do face damage. Oh no, Songhai has a 6 damage face combo that might nail some crappy minions if they don’t blow their load instantly.
IF and Flash were the first things I thought about, but really- Gnasher already works with IF, reducing it’s cost just reduces the opportunity cost of that combo, which isn’t beyond the tolerances of what the game already does with 2 card combos. I wouldn’t assume that other players don’t consider things just because they don’t mention them. I’d actually worry more about Naga becoming viable and the consequences of a better Nimbus enabler. Not because that wouldn’t be welcome- but because Nimbus being so slow is part of it’s charm giving it lots of enablers might actually reduce the fun in playing or setting up with it (IE, pigeonhole Vet into Nimbus proc’ing to victory.)
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_"Okay serious mode: you might be right — it might be fine to give _
_songhai such a combo. The real criticism I have is that people have _
suggested changes to Gnasher without even considering how it may interact with inner focus."
That’s fair, so maybe the damage gets lowered to 2, these things I’m totally flexible on, and WANT to talk about. You made a point that sticks, if it’s going to be far too strong, then either it’s strength, or the damage it deals from the proc when it dies should be lowered possibly.
My point is I’m open to hearing that sort of thing, I would rather have feedback than not, and incorporate it in the original post if it makes sense.
So please dial it back a bit, I’m not being confrontational with you man. I like this sort of input.
You might not be being confrontational, I am
But look we have an expansion like 20 days away. I fail to see why CP should spend time balance testing proposed buffs to already existing cards when they can focus that energy on a new set instead.
Changing a card, costs almost as much developer time as making a new one. So, to once again reiterate my previous point; if these cards are not a problem, why make the effort of changing them?
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I feel making Gnasher a 2/3 would be better, so its effect does not become easier to trigger
“Without bad card you can’t have good card” - myself
it’s what is called as the bad card relativity. That’s why atomic bomb exist :b
Do you think maybe they both should be 2/3? That could maybe work. What I like about a 3/2 Gnasher is you have to keep your distance or deal directly with it…but again that might be too strong, and it gives people time to respond and move on the board.
Also maybe Naga should damage itself for 2 like Skorn does for 1. So a 2/3 that becomes a 2/1 after dealing that damage can be pinged for 1 in response, rather than being a huge threat.
I want these cards to be useful, not “The New Skorn” in terms of broken, so I appreciate the input man.
*(EDITED for better reasoning)
I wouldn’t say that slightly adjusting a card as per their normal tweaking is more expensive than the time they spend on a whole new set. Nor would I call it nearly as time consuming.
If anything these things don’t intersect that much, as one is a batch of new cards which need to be played in real games to be stress tested, so they can see if more revisions need be made, Vs old hat cards which are easy to adjust in turn since they already exist and people know how they work in relation to others.
Again, these three cards are in competition for the same spot, all of them do similar things, and there is an illusion of choice as to which people will pick. It’s not simply just a case of some cards being “bad” or generally thought of as weaker. These changes would result in a wider variety of decks and play styles.
If Naga needs to be toned down it’s proc to 1 damage, and Gnasher needs to be toned down to 2 that might even be OK (though honsetly, the scaling damage is cool to me, in terms of risk Vs reward for setup, as Skorn can be played literally anywhere on the board, and both Skorn and Naga are Opening Gambit abilities)…but the topic is more how to make all three cards useful instead of creating situations where illusions of choice make for a less interesting and varied game.
His concern is more with how much improving bad cards actually increases the playability of the game. IE, is this even worth the dev’s time?
I would tend to agree with him in that respect for this specific post. But I do feel like many faction cards are so under the bar that they deserve reworks (mostly Vet and Magmar.) But honestly, more CC minions are likely in Duelyst’s future, so it may be kind of moot to want to improve the ones we already have.
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Well, i’ll give you an example, in Gnasher’s case…I think there’s a lot of synergy with Consuming Rebirth, Lurking fear, and Darkfire Sacrifice.
But he’s clunky at 4 mana, so Dying Wish as a central theme is once again harder to pull off again when compared to Creep or Swarm for the faction (I’ve been analyzing why that is a lot lately).
So Gnasher alone would help make Abyssian more varied on a competitive level. I do think there would be an impact there.
Also I hate illusions of choice, it only promotes people pulling lists rather than seeking to make new ones.
I do realize new cards are coming, but I still think balanced changes in this direction, (in response to Skorn’s changes) promotes greater variety of play styles, and therefore a better experience.
Maybe it would help if you actually list some facts. Claiming that someone is ‘factually wrong’ over and over again and then not providing anything at all to back it up is kinda moot.
3 Likes
Love this suggestion. Gnasher at 3 mana would be great for the dying wish Abyssian deck.
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I feel a lot of faction cards could be tweaked a bit too, but I also think that most of those should get review after the new set is released.
My reasoning is that if the new cards are similar, but obviously superior, than redesigns for older cards will easier to figure out through player consensus. So you’re again looking for different cards that work for a wider variety of archetypes, etc.
@moot, @eternamemoria, @dewize, @paralykeet, @Smash_the_Hamster, @thematsjo
Updated at the top after consideration, and detailed here!
Gnasher has changed (See below), and I’ve changed Frostbone Naga, so that it also deals the 2 Damage to itself (alla Skorn), since Naga was changed to a 2/3 as well, that would leave a 2/1 creature on the board, after the damage is done (nothing too strong, in fact it’s similar to Nightsorrow Assasin, which also leaves a 2/1 body on the board.
I like these changes overall, though it tempts me to think that Nightsorrow needs to be a 2/3 to be fair in comparison as well (haha, I’m down the rabbit hole), however, I still think this is all fair, and like where things are at. Thoughts?
Also, for those celebrating, happy Thanksgiving!
FROSTBONE NAGA
COST: 3 Mana,
STATS:2/3,
OPENING GAMBIT: Deals 2 Damage to all adjacent Minions Generals, Including itselt
(Changed to be similar to Blistering Skorn, in that now you aren’t left with a powerful 3/3 after it procs.)
GNASHER
COST: 3 Mana,
STATS:2/3,
DYING WISH: Deals 3 Damage to all adjacent Enemies.
(@eternamemoria made mention o changing Gnasher to a 2/3. While I initially liked the idea of Gnasher being a glass cannon. At 2/3, Inner Focus can’t lead to an immediate 6 face damage to the opponent’s General on the 1st or 2nd turn (on top of also possibly killing minions in the process). The opponent can respond by trading minions to eliminate him quickly while maneuvering out of his way after he’s played. And any spells that can sacrifice him to proc his ability (IE: Darkfire Sacrifice, and Consuming Rebirth for example) destroy him outright either way.)
NIGHTSORROW ASSASSIN
COST: 3 Mana,
STATS:2/3,
OPENING GAMBIT: Destroy a nearby Enemy Minion with 2 or less Attack.
(EDITED: Nightsorrow is now included in this thread, in order to really run the gamut of these types of creatures in balance with each other. I have her Buffed to 2/3, to make it balanced against Frostbone Naga and Gnasher. Since it only destroys one reletively weak creature, at least it leaves a toughish body on the field. Whereas, Naga is now weakened to 2/1 after being played, and Gnasher of course still has to die to proc. The more I thought this out, the more I realized all four should really be in balance.