Duelyst Forums

Frostbone Naga and Gnasher, both need a Redsign where they cost 3 Mana, not 4, so they aren't in competition with Blistering Skorn post Patch! (EDIT: Nightsorrow Assassin should also be adjusted to 2/3 in comparison to these suggestions for balance.)

#36

@Smash_the_Hamster

*(EDITED for better reasoning)

I wouldn’t say that slightly adjusting a card as per their normal tweaking is more expensive than the time they spend on a whole new set. Nor would I call it nearly as time consuming.

If anything these things don’t intersect that much, as one is a batch of new cards which need to be played in real games to be stress tested, so they can see if more revisions need be made, Vs old hat cards which are easy to adjust in turn since they already exist and people know how they work in relation to others.

Again, these three cards are in competition for the same spot, all of them do similar things, and there is an illusion of choice as to which people will pick. It’s not simply just a case of some cards being “bad” or generally thought of as weaker. These changes would result in a wider variety of decks and play styles.

If Naga needs to be toned down it’s proc to 1 damage, and Gnasher needs to be toned down to 2 that might even be OK (though honsetly, the scaling damage is cool to me, in terms of risk Vs reward for setup, as Skorn can be played literally anywhere on the board, and both Skorn and Naga are Opening Gambit abilities)…but the topic is more how to make all three cards useful instead of creating situations where illusions of choice make for a less interesting and varied game.

#37

His concern is more with how much improving bad cards actually increases the playability of the game. IE, is this even worth the dev’s time?

I would tend to agree with him in that respect for this specific post. But I do feel like many faction cards are so under the bar that they deserve reworks (mostly Vet and Magmar.) But honestly, more CC minions are likely in Duelyst’s future, so it may be kind of moot to want to improve the ones we already have.

2 Likes
#38

@paralykeet

Well, i’ll give you an example, in Gnasher’s case…I think there’s a lot of synergy with Consuming Rebirth, Lurking fear, and Darkfire Sacrifice.

But he’s clunky at 4 mana, so Dying Wish as a central theme is once again harder to pull off again when compared to Creep or Swarm for the faction (I’ve been analyzing why that is a lot lately).

So Gnasher alone would help make Abyssian more varied on a competitive level. I do think there would be an impact there.

Also I hate illusions of choice, it only promotes people pulling lists rather than seeking to make new ones.

I do realize new cards are coming, but I still think balanced changes in this direction, (in response to Skorn’s changes) promotes greater variety of play styles, and therefore a better experience.

#39

Maybe it would help if you actually list some facts. Claiming that someone is ‘factually wrong’ over and over again and then not providing anything at all to back it up is kinda moot.

3 Likes
#40

Love this suggestion. Gnasher at 3 mana would be great for the dying wish Abyssian deck.

1 Like
#41

@paralykeet

I feel a lot of faction cards could be tweaked a bit too, but I also think that most of those should get review after the new set is released.

My reasoning is that if the new cards are similar, but obviously superior, than redesigns for older cards will easier to figure out through player consensus. So you’re again looking for different cards that work for a wider variety of archetypes, etc.

#42

@moot, @eternamemoria, @dewize, @paralykeet, @Smash_the_Hamster, @thematsjo

Updated at the top after consideration, and detailed here!

Gnasher has changed (See below), and I’ve changed Frostbone Naga, so that it also deals the 2 Damage to itself (alla Skorn), since Naga was changed to a 2/3 as well, that would leave a 2/1 creature on the board, after the damage is done (nothing too strong, in fact it’s similar to Nightsorrow Assasin, which also leaves a 2/1 body on the board.

I like these changes overall, though it tempts me to think that Nightsorrow needs to be a 2/3 to be fair in comparison as well (haha, I’m down the rabbit hole), however, I still think this is all fair, and like where things are at. Thoughts?

Also, for those celebrating, happy Thanksgiving!

FROSTBONE NAGA
COST: 3 Mana,
STATS:2/3,
OPENING GAMBIT: Deals 2 Damage to all adjacent Minions Generals, Including itselt

(Changed to be similar to Blistering Skorn, in that now you aren’t left with a powerful 3/3 after it procs.)

GNASHER
COST: 3 Mana,
STATS:2/3,
DYING WISH: Deals 3 Damage to all adjacent Enemies.

(@eternamemoria made mention o changing Gnasher to a 2/3. While I initially liked the idea of Gnasher being a glass cannon. At 2/3, Inner Focus can’t lead to an immediate 6 face damage to the opponent’s General on the 1st or 2nd turn (on top of also possibly killing minions in the process). The opponent can respond by trading minions to eliminate him quickly while maneuvering out of his way after he’s played. And any spells that can sacrifice him to proc his ability (IE: Darkfire Sacrifice, and Consuming Rebirth for example) destroy him outright either way.)

NIGHTSORROW ASSASSIN
COST: 3 Mana,
STATS:2/3,
OPENING GAMBIT: Destroy a nearby Enemy Minion with 2 or less Attack.

(EDITED: Nightsorrow is now included in this thread, in order to really run the gamut of these types of creatures in balance with each other. I have her Buffed to 2/3, to make it balanced against Frostbone Naga and Gnasher. Since it only destroys one reletively weak creature, at least it leaves a toughish body on the field. Whereas, Naga is now weakened to 2/1 after being played, and Gnasher of course still has to die to proc. The more I thought this out, the more I realized all four should really be in balance.

#43

I’d say gnasher should be a 3/2 for 3 with the same dying wish and the same stats for Nightsorrow, 3/2 for 3, same opening gambit.

#44

The title… its… evolving…

4 Likes
#45

I don’t like changes for changes sake. The three of them are different to each other laterally. Each fulfills a different role in any given deck. Of course, skorn is the most flexible and ‘standard’ choice, but each has it’s own value.

Skorn: Friendly Fire and unlimited range;
Naga: Friendly Fire and limited range;
Gnasher: Death wish, higher damage, limited range;

I’m running Naga over skorn because I need a board clear that leaves a body but I don’t want to hurt my backline value generators.

#46

Hi guys, how about leaving balancing the cards to ACTUAL game designers? No? Ok.

3 Likes
#47

No. Actual game designers have yet to realise that a 5 mana 6/6 Motorboat Wiggleboss is healthy for Duelyst, because any competitive game is fuelled by salt and tears with a side of cancer.

#48

Naga is a pretty reasonable choice in gauntlet. Even gnasher is situationally good there.

#49

What minion is that?

#50

Makantor Jesus. Who rose from the Lazarus Pit via a Keeper proc.

2 Likes
#51

I agree that night sorrow should be buffed stat wise or make it 3 attack or less

#52

Now I’m just imagining Makantor Warbeast twerking its way out of the ground.

1 Like
#53

@thefirstgokun

Yup.

I took some time and tried to make sure there wasn’t too much cheese going on here, while thinking about suggestions from other posters. Nightsorrow was added because it’s a singular, limited kill for what would be the same mana, and leaving only a 2/1 behind, it’s not really much of a buff, but as suggestions for Stat-lines became more reasonably thought out in order to ensure that early turn swarm moves weren’t too penalized, that seemed fair, in case you’re more interested in having a body out rather than potentially killing something.

Yes it’s a faction card, but the stat lines were becoming similar in range/scope for effect.

I’m not against this thread changing as people present ideas that make sense, or they inspire me to look at something from a different angle, I am however pretty sold on these cards being looked at for redesigns.

#54

@nubirak, @galdred, @kvewgir, @savetheracoon @jernat

Hey gang, I’m going to try to address you all here rather than make a ton of posts, obviousy this mostly aimed @nubirak, but it keeps the discussion fresh and inclusive to do it this way.

These are not meant to be potential changes for the sake of just changing things.

These are balance redesign suggestions, aimed at making these cards all a bit more valuable in balance against one another AND Skorn, in order to give people a wider variety of choices and deck archetypes.

Gnasher in particular makes dying wish themed decks for Abyssian more viable for example. Meaning I don’t have to pick Swarm, or Creep only. That’s not just a change for changes sake, that gives the meta more dimensions.

Magmar Decks could absolutely use a new 3 drop Minion with removal to replace Skorn ATM. Frostbone Naga becomes appealing at 3 mana, and if it’s stat line changes, and it self-damages, now it’s not really a threat on the board, even if it hard countered a few minions early.

Nightsorrow Assassin has seen some changes already, but with a slight stat boost would be a bit more viable as a choice Vs Frostbone and Gnasher if they were changed. So if you’re not playing a Dying Wish theme Abyssian deck, maybe straight removal will be far more consistant.

Both Gnasher and Frostbone work well with the other factions too, but these are examples, and gives you perspective as to why the thread has evolved. Also, it helps prevent Inner Focus from being abused too much with Gnasher to have him as a 2/3 if he’s made a 3 Mana cast, though it could still be used effectively that way a bit more mid game, in a fair and straightforward manner.

But please don’t look at a wall of text up top, refrain from reading it, and then claim these are changes merely for the sake of changing things.

#55

Hey,

Maybe my choice of words was a bit harsh. What I meant to say was that these cards already fill niche roles in the decks they are played (even if they are not ‘meta’ or ‘S-rank’).

I understand the need of better 3 drops. However, a buff to the mana cost could warrant nerfs in other areas of the cards and it’s hard to predict exactly what the changes would entail, specially when talking about redesigns and changes that could upset their use in the decks these cards are played.

About the proposed changes: To me, the change to Skorn means that, maybe, tempo aoe effects are too strong below 4-mana. Too much aoe has the potential of killing any deck based on minions (not only swarm) and having a steady stream of aoe damage could shape the meta in bad ways.

All in all, I’d prefer new cards to be introduced instead of changing existing ones. While the ideal would be to have every card be equally good and viable, I believe that is an impossible goal to reach, and constant meddling is worse than allowing some inequality to occur.