Duelyst Forums

Fixing Saberspine Tiger

#13

To a lesser extent I think that cards like makantor/revenant /elucidator are also a problem.

I think rework the rush keyword itself also has the advantage to remove pressure on this keyword, on its current state rush is going to be a nightmare for the dev to re-use in the future, just like it was a nightmare for them to create new creep generators because of shadow nova. For example it will be impossible for the dev to make a vanar/neutral minion with rush ever because of kara’s BBS!

Dealing with saberpine tiger only deals with the emerge part of the Iceberg

See raqyee I haven’t use the word design space :smiley:

#14

Neutral rush is obviously the larger issue due to the near infinite combinations with all the cards in the game. Ref Kara BBs. Not the problem with Rashas curse, Star Fury etc…

#15

You didn’t even read my post, did you?

#16

The tiger doesn’t need to be fixed. It has a unique place in the game. It’s also one of the most powerful critters that new players can get.

I think even the Kara+tiger stuff is overblown. Okay she can bump up its stats a couple of times. To do that, she has to let it sit in her hand for how long? The card is sitting there, doing nothing. In many cases she is taking damage or relinquishing board control in exchange for not playing it.

I can’t believe people are worked up about tigers when every time I play Magmar I get multiple Makantors hitting me in the face with rush AND frenzy so they also take out 1 or more of my minions for free.

#17

That’s… that’s actually quite intelligent. I love that idea.

1 Like
#18

It’s a clever idea but would dramatically reduce the usefulness of this creature.

#19

thats the point.
thats what “NERFING” means.

#20

Fine, I consider that sort of nerf excessive and unnecessary. There are many far more broken cards than the tiger, and you’ll just be making it that much harder for new players to make viable decks.

#21

The thing is, most decks aren’t aggro enough to punish her in time. In a midrange vs midrange battle, which seems to be the most common, Kara’s BBS used on even 1 minion can turn the tides. Be it a 3/4 Primus Fist or a 5/4 Zen’rui, or even a 3/4 Ash Mephyt, all minions have values based around their mana cost, stats, and effect. Kara’s BBS completely throws those values off.

#22

So Kara adding a +1/+1 to one creature is game-breaking but Argeon adding +2/0 isn’t?

I’ve been playing a cheap Kara deck recently. I am not dominating the competition by any means. In fact i find an aggro Faie deck much easier to win with most of the time.

It’s rare I can even afford the luxury of keeping tigers in my hand for many turns to buff them up.

#23

Argeon’s BBS targets 1 minion, the minion has to be on the field before hand, and perhaps most importantly, doesn’t add health. In a game of trading like Duelyst, 1 health makes the difference between your general getting hit once or twice.

And again, it’s not all about the tiger burst. It’s the fact that Kara’s BBS simply throws off internal minion balance. Minions that are balanced are having strong effects and weaker stats lose that balance.

#24

Come on, all BBSes are designed to alter the flow of the game in the favor of the one who uses them, and that includes altering the “internal minion balance”. Cassyva having a free -1 ping every one or two turns that also creates a dangerous play square alters it. Starhorn’s churn giving him the chance to put down an 8/8 monstrosity before the opponent barely gets starterd alters game balance. Lilithe’s BBS alters minion balance by generating huge numbers of them in combination with numerous effects that trigger off either summoning or killing summons.

Sorry but “throws off internal minion balance” is to me not a very persuasive argument. Again, if we are so concerned about “internal minion balance” why don’t we start by fixing the truly OP minions and spells rather than nerfing a general into uselessness?

#25

Cassyva’s 1 mana ping requires another minion, spell, or attack to make it effective. Otherwise you’re killing a 1 health minion with a 1 mana 1 damage spell, which is fair. Especially after the Shadow creep changes too.

Starhorn’s BBS is widely considered to be THE worst. I’m not sure what 8/8 creature you’re referring to, since it also gives his opponent a free draw as well, it evens the playing field.

Lillith’s BBS is ironically considered to be one of the most balanced. It’s 1 mana for 2 1/1s with no special effects. While it does have good synergy with other faction cards, the Wraithlings by themselves do nothing outstanding. It’s right on par with Zirix’s BBS in terms of flat value.

Every other BBS plays fairly with the game. The next closest one is amusingly enough Faie’s, which can do upto 10 damage for 1 mana. But that also requires the opposing player to be a complete and utter idiot. Kara’s BBS is the only one that alters the very fundamentals of the game.

#26

I simply don’t find your arguments consistent. Cassyva’s BBS requires something else to be effective but Kara’s doesn’t? Except you’re not even correct, because it is very common for minions to be left with 1 health after an attack. Opportunities abound to use it, and if they aren’t there you can create them.

You insist that giving 1 minion 1 extra health is somehow unbalancing but minimize the utility of Cassyva’s BBS, which is -1 health that can: A. be used anywhere on the board; B. creates shadow creep, an already powerful and cumulative effect; C. can be used in any number of abyssian combos and synergies. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had minions taken out by combinations of general hits, minions hits or spells plus that BBS.

There’s a reason that bloodtear alchemist is popular, and it’s not the artwork.

IMO there’s nothing OP about Kara’s BBS compared to several others. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

1 Like
#27

So… This is a long way to go to temporarily fix the enigma that is Kara’s Bloodborn spell. Neutral Rush minions, Opening Gambit minions, static value trigger minions, or minions that care about their size (think Lifelink in MtG) absolutely warp in power level because her BBS stacks.

Kara’s BBS simply limits design space, stifles perfect imbalance, and makes her a feature that actively makes people dread playing Duelyst. If the problem is the BBS stacking so harshly, then the answer isn’t to change other dynamic, well balanced, intrigue building cards.

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#28

I just looked in game at the current replay matchups for gold and diamond. Of the 40 generals represented in this set of 2x10 games, I found 1 Kara.

And 14 Vaaths.

Maybe it’s different in S rank (it won’t show me anything there) but everywhere else I just don’t see the problem.

1 Like
#29

Woah.

That… might be just the ticket. I… really like it! Agreed Wind Dervishes and Tusk Boar should probably continue to function as currently, or be reworked entirely.

Talk about an efficient idea, kudos to you.

2 Likes
#30

I am actually in favor of nerfing rush in general. I think the whole move OR attack thing would be nice to see. In its current form Rush is doing what CPG hate the most IMO: limiting design space. You can’t really make many more rush minions and they can’t really make cool rush interactions since the keyword is so powerful, any minion with it will make the meta go buck wild. Changing how rush works will allow for more interesting cards with it and just in general make the game less volatile when new cards are introduced.
P.S. Okay, this is gonna be completely off-topic, but this thread just highlighted to me how @raqyee and @Okojo are like a bad cop and a good cop of this forum. Raqyee is always harsh and unforgiving in his criticism, while Okojo is more gentle and encouraging. It is so amusing to see you two in the same thread.

3 Likes
#31

Then you don’t play/build kara properly, I can even hold 2 tigers in most games.

Glad you like it.

This is what I tried to say higher in the topic but OP just ignored it.

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#32

What spells give rush?