I suppose it can get pretty abusive, although Battle Pets need all the help they need. I’ll change it to 3 mana; that seems reasonable.
Pretty much. I like the fact that you can just cast this on any minion and they now get +1/+1 buff any time they are moved by a spell or just by moving themselves.
Actually I intended it as an “OPnerf” critique, because summoning 2 ranged minions with 4 attack in summ for 1 mana is too much. That is not counting face damage and Turtle’s stats.
Do you really think this is balanced? This + Kaleos gives +2/+2 for 3 mana, every following MDS has a double effect, every relocation and reactivation also gives free stats, not mentioning how it allows for free Backstabs until hard answered. This is literally Mantra of movement/Backstab decks, even worse.
And second batch of critique:
Personally I’d prefer it to be 5 mana 5/5 with Rush & Flying, something like that.
I like how you try to approach this, even though it may simply destroy current Creep if taken further.
No specific suggestions on your card, but I think it could be better if tiles had duration.
I never expected the card to be overpowered. It’s a 7 mana minion with no immediate impact, so it’s already one of the weakest cards in Duelyst. Also, the combo you mentioned takes 2 to 3 turns to execute at the very least, all turns in which you cannot play curve because you have to BBS. Not to mention you have to keep the Heartseeker alive for it to move next turn, and that is not an easy task past 7 mana.
All in all, I tried to illustrate the commonplace philosophy of the tortoise with the card. Even if you may start off slower than others, your efforts will pay off in the end if you are diligent enough. Although such a design may be a setback in the fast-paced environment of Duelyst, there must be a reason why one of the greatest warriors in the Songhai Empire chose to harness the powers of such a slow animal.
I think its a lot of mana and resources to spend on one minion which can easily be dispelled or removed by cards like Lavaslasher. You can say its free backstabs but there is only so much backstab you can be doing if you’re opponent hugs the wall or plays little minions.
I can agree to the mana being brought up to 3, but if I were to make that change, this card would not see play compared to a more immediate and game-ending buff like Killing Edge.
Let’s compare this card to the other two “give flying” spells
A +3/+3 buff is a lot more immediate and immediately forces your opponent to search for answers or die. In addition, this card can easily be grabbed by tutoring cards like Duskweaver. The minion having to be a dervish is not much a restriction since you will rarely cast this on non-dervish minions. This card also has synergy with Pantheran as well fulfilling his 0 mana summoning requirements in addition to placing threats on the board.
Astral Phasing is not as impressive as Third Wish I suppose but there is still something to be said about its synergy (and often surprise lethal) with Cosmic Flesh.
I think you are a bit off the mark with this statement
As the amount resources that are being put into a single minion would make any Midrange Songhai player sad. Its not that strong in a midrange deck when you want to be playing minions all the time and keeping board presence rather than buffing a single minion and hope it doesn’t get dealt with and its not ideal in aggro where this buff would be much too slow. This spell is simply support for movehai, support which is desperately needed.
I don’t know what type of nerf to give it (if it is even necessary) but making this card 3 mana will kill it.
All 3 previous contest winners are dedicated
I assume this is talking about p2t1 here, so all that I am about to say relates to that.
Putting it centrally might seem to be the answer to all your problems, however, then it will never be able to challenge any of the other mana tiles. if you put it in one of the lanes nest to the center one then it can contest minions placed on both the central and upper/lower mana tile depending on which was chosen. you can also put it in the outer lanes if you truely value ramping to 5 mana and if you are blocked then your opponent has to give you something to trade into which is what this minion wants in the first place.
all of that is just considering the 4 rows on one turn, not to mention which exact space on each row you place it on (there are 6 good options in total I think), which option you choose will depend on your hand, the matchup and your gameplan and will only get more interesting as the game goes on.
the other fun thing to note is that logcrusher is basically hard countered by replusor beast
Did you seriously miss the part where all of this is for 1 turn? Definitely stronger than Chakram because of its lower cost, but it doesn’t give it to all minions and only lasts 1 turn.
Oh good to know. This warms me inside my heart.
Yes, it doesn’t have immediate impact, but it is basically another answer or die card, and I strongly dislike that design. It requires only 2 turns to set up. And I don’t think Ranged requires any support in the first place as it is the strongest keyword in the game.
As an important minion and having additional movement capabilities, Turtle is played in the back. To remove it you opponent needs either reach and 10 damage, in which case he should kill your general instead, or hard removal/Dispel. Because of the latter you are not playing it on an empty board, with BBS on cooldown or on exactly 7 mana (“on curve” in your words). You play it on 8 and immediately have +1 Ranged minion for each minion you already had (essentially doubling your board) + BBS itself (I assume Heartseeker). Unless your opponent has Plasma Storm/EMP, next turn Turtle most likely is going face, followed by Cannoneer pings for BM and ranged attacks.
I’m even close to saying that it’s a winmore card, because if you’re playing it you should already have board control. And yes, it is too slow, because you have no time to speed up from 8 mana, game should be ended by that time even though I strongly dislike such design approach.
Apart from the contest, where you obviously need some movement effects, I’d change it to be something like
5 mana 3/4
Blood Surge: summon Heartseeker nearby
Yes, it is simple, dull and everyone wants more Heartseekers, but I see how it can be played. And I don’t think minions Turtle summons need that additional ping, Ranged and Movement are different archetypes.
hmm, I wouldn’t put ranged as the best keyword in the game, I would rate them (not including the variable keywords) as follows:
Id swap forcefield and ranged’s places.
After all, forcefield is appraised to be worth generally 1.5-2 mana while ranged is worth on the worst cards lime 1 mana.
Disregarding that, ranged creatures have a target over their heads with no protection, generally trash bodies.
forcefield minions have built in protection and dont take damage in trades- same benefit as ranged minions
they are certainly very close, as are provoke and celerity. I think that ranged is a better keyword on smaller, cheap bodies, and forcefield is better on bigger, more expensive bodies.
I’m not counting Invulnerable for obvious reasons.
My logic is that you need Rush/Celerity/Provoke exactly to deal with Ranged and similar backline threats.
But this, as well as my comments on card ideas, is largely personal opinion.
You don’t care about Dispel or removal, because you get your value immediately. Also you don’t care about resources because you will use it as a finisher.
Even if you don’t play it as a finisher, for Kaleos alone this is a lesser Killing Edge. Then, Footprints + BBS + KE give any minion +6/+4. That means that most likely you are dealing 8 damage to opposing General for 2 mana less then Spiral Technique with just 2 cards and also get to stay on the board.
Play on Bakezori for bonus hand refill shenanigans, repeat next turn.
Play on 7 mana for same effect + bonus removal of a minion with Protocol.
The only “drawback” I can think of is that it conflicts with Inner Focus.
And the last problem is that while it supports Movehai, it would be immediately picked up basically by everything Reva and used with similar or greater success on Ranged & Celerity minions without any regards for movement synergy.
Not necessary. And most likely not even as an opening play. You play it with another 2/3 drop somewhere in center and deny your opponent 9 tiles right away with potential to deny 15. That potential is why you don’t move him, making you opponent always think about your ability to move forward. And if your opponent trades - that is exactly what you want from a 3 mana minion, right?
I would rather name Lure as a hard counter, and maybe Juxtaposition, but personally I would be completely fine with that.
I’m not sure why you say “4 rows” if there should be just 3 (not playing on outer rows). Maybe you meant columns? Also, can he move diagonally or only horizontally?
This is a 3 mana board wipe and/or 3 mana for 10+ face damage. I don’t care that it’s only for one turn. Even Charkam often doesn’t care about that.
It is impossible to support a keyword as a whole, nor was that my intention. However, it is possible to support an archetype. It has been evident that CPG has been trying to support the Ranged archetype of Songhai, given cards such as Bombard and Xenkai Cannoneer. Despite such efforts, Ranged Songhai has not seen any play. So yes, they do need support. Also, Ranged is far from being the best keyword in the game.
Then you must also dislike half of the high-costed minions in Duelyst. You must dislike Dragonbone Golem because if you aren’t able to remove it you take 10 face damage next turn. You must dislike Dark Nemesis because it guarantees at least 8 face damage if you can’t remove it in one turn. Actually, you must dislike all win-cons in the game because apparently, it’s bad design if you won’t have an answer 100% of the time.
Also, please keep in mind that if Gen-Bo wants to achieve such win-con levels of damage, he needs a large board. No Songhai archetype is able to build swarms. Its minions are capable of burst but are frail in exchange. Granted, even one or two minions on the board can be powerful enough with Gen-Bo at 8 mana, but it pales in comparison to what other decks can do at turn 8, especially late-game decks. It’s better than nothing, but it’ll always have its limits. Not to mention that even if Gen-Bo played at 8 mana can generate a lot of tokens, it still has no immediate impact.
Now you’re just contradicting yourself. You just said that Gen-Bo played at 8 mana is too strong, and now you say that it’s pointless? I don’t think it’s overpowered, but I don’t think it’s unnecessary either, because just because Songhai minions can move, doesn’t mean that the game is automatically won.
It’s quite irrational if you think that people won’t play Gen-Bo if they do not have board control. Whether or not you have a board, Gen-Bo would almost always have significance. Let’s imagine you have a board of a Kaido Assasin and a Primus Fist. If you summon Gen-Bo that turn and follow with a BBS, you can summon 2 more minions, which is a much better play than something like a Zendo or EMP. Granted, two extra minions is not much, but it does give you a higher chance of winning than most other Songhai late-game options.
As a Songhai player, I can guarantee that situations like above are not rare at all. Do you honestly think that people would overlook a card like this only because it’ll have no use when you already have board control? How can they guarantee that they will always have board control? That’s the equivalent of saying that we can take out Grand Strategos of Strategos decks because we won’t need a use of it when we can just beat the opponent with the swarm.
In my opinion, balance isn’t everything in cards. I would prefer it if cards are interesting and flavorful, and I would daresay that balance can come second. I love new ideas, but I think it’s just strange to suggest such a lackluster option. Also, I think it’s a little too weak as well. Looking at other 5 mana Blood Surge minions, I think your design needs some buffs. Perhaps it can summon two Heartseekers instead of just one.
What is the point of forcefully separating archetypes? Can’t a card be used in multiple ones? I am actually quite fond of many Songhai cards because of how they represent many different archetypes at once, and used across them without difference. Cards like Mist Dragon Seal can be used to teleport a Backstab minion to an optimal location, or move a Ranged minion far away from enemies. Dusk Rigger can obviously be used in a Mech deck, but also can be used in a Backstab deck, or an Arcanyst deck for spell synergy.
Gen-Bo can be used in traditional Midrange decks as a replacement to EMP. It actually gives Songhai, a faction lacking in card draw and high-costed minions, another late-game option. When the opponent has the upper hand it can be used to sustain, and when you have the upper hand, it can be used to end the game. But that upper hand cannot be achieved without setup.
It can also be used in Ranged decks. Although Ranged decks are very weak, and is yet not fully fleshed-out as an archetype, perhaps this can be the win-con to make things click. If a Xenkai Canoneer manages to survive until Gen-Bo can activate his Blood Surge, it can deal great amounts of burst befitting for a Songhai deck. But again, such a combo will require a lot of setup.
Lastly, it can fit nicely into the 8-drop slots of Ox Titan decks. The archetype would surely welcome another solid 8-drop minion, which can be used to either progress the Trial or deal heavy damage. Furthermore, Gen-Bo will pair particularly well with Ox, because Ox will deal damage every time Gen-Bo summons a token.
So I have considered all these archetypes when making Gen-Bo. It might be used in all of them, or it might be used in none; I cannot tell. But one thing I can be sure of is that there is nothing wrong with comprehensive card designs.
Gonna break this down with quotes (I would also like you to keep in mind that I play exclusively Songhai with minion based hai archetypes being what I consider my signature deck):
What you seem to be fixating on is a simple +1/+1 buff and equating this buff which costs 3 mana as a finisher somehow even assuming the minion in question can move.
In Kaleos, this means nothing, because spending 3 mana for such a small buff in almost any kaleos deck is asking to lose. Kal wants minions, Kal wants board. I one hundred percent do run a buff spell in my Kal midrange deck but the only time I ever play it is as a finisher because otherwise you should play for board.
In addition, the entire combo you outlined as a finisher is horribly bad. Just one combo I can think of in a midrange Kaleos deck that would be much better is Flamewreath and Blink. Just that alone is 2 damage and then if we assume flamewreath can move, its 4-6 damage in a single minion for 1 mana. And then if you want to bring KE into the picture, its half the cost of spiral for 9 damage. This also leaves you with a 6/6 on the board with more potential damage next turn.
Not sure what this means. Bakezori doesn’t need flying to give draw based on movement. If you are talking about the buff on a 2/6, I would highly advise you to look at the Magmar faction in particular the grow mechanic and see how they are doing with their 1/7 grow +4/+4 for 5 mana compared to Bake 6 mana grow +1/+1. Bake does draw some card, yes, but just keep in mind that this spell is 2 mana and Bake will likely get dealt with anyways as with or without the buff, having him on the field is bad for the opponent.
For 7 mana, you can do a lot of things and this is not one that you want to be doing. In the lategame for any minion hai deck, you are already losing or winning (less likely to be winning), this combo will not bring you back.
Among others such as being a 2 mana spell that has no immediate impact on the board and requires a minion as well being ahead on board to have the luxury of playing a 2 mana spell with no immediate impact on the board.
If Reva plays this, she is bad. Midrange Reva wants minions and board same as mid kal. Spending two mana for anything else is bad unless its a finisher or clears board somehow. Aggro reva wants face now, not 4 turns later. Celerity and this is pretty nasty, but I doubt this one spell will suddenly make everyone want to play Dagger Kiri in Songhai.
What? There is no immediate value in this card. As a finisher, this card is at very best one of many combo pieces and at the very best is adding an extra +2 attack for 3 mana? This is absolutely not a finisher card and if you are using it that way then I don’t know what to tell you.
It’s funny how we’re debating so intensely about fictional cards…
As I seem to be answering two Songhai mains, it may be good to clarify that I’m an Abyssian main myself, Soghai is my second faction and I play Shidai tempo/burn/however-you-call-it-I’m-not-good-in-those-terms.
Also you shouldn’t take my critique as a personal attack, but I think that’s obvious.
And also, I missed some points while answering because I feel like this is already bit too much.
Where did I say the opposite?
Yes, I don’t like answer-or-die. And yes, I dislike a lot of other cards, I’m not sure what to discuss here. I could go on and describe my view on Duelyst and why I accept bad design decisions in it, but I think that would be too much offtopic.
I’m not contradicting myself because having a strong effect and having that effect achieved when you’re already winning don’t contradict each other either. But, I didn’t state that Turtle is exactly winmore, maybe it’s not, but it does make me think so. Your example with Assassin & Primus does counter that statement, but I’m still not convinced and I don’t want to go into speculation about theoretical game scenarios.
Just as you said that I contradict myself, I think you contradict yourself where you say that Gen-Bo doesn’t provide immediate impact and that there are other, more effective plays for 8 mana but still assure me that players won’t overlook that card.
Balance is the core of multiplayer card games, otherwise you can easily end up with something interesting but absolutely unplayable.
Finally, my design was just an example. You can try to improve it if you want.
Just to make sure, all this time I was implying that you have an active minion on the board, which can move and attack.
With that said, I really don’t know what kind of immediate impact you’re talking about. Phoenix Fire level of immediate impact? Four Winds + hand full of Plumes level of immediate?
Is Sarlac an immediate impact? 3 mana for a 1/1 which may end up on any side of the board on your next turn? Is Chakram immediate, 5 mana build-a-board-or-do-nothing?
Being able to bring anything in your opponent’s face and buff it along the way is powerful. It is basically a 2 mana Cadence without sacrificing.
If you can’t think of ways to use it in your deck, well, I guess it’s just not good for your deck at all. It doesn’t mean that spell itself is bad or weak or balanced.
Of course not. I’m enjoying the discussion, and there’re no hard feelings. Apologies if I sound too agressive, but I do love a heated discussion.
Not all advantages have to be an immediate impact. Summoning a lot of tokens on the board isn’t necessarily an immediate impact, but it does give you an opportunity to turn the tables. And yes, having an immediate impact is much better than what Gen-Bo can do, but again, it’s that tortoise philosophy.
The main reason why I deprioritize balance when making cards is that I just don’t know. Most of the time, I can’t judge how strong a card would be just by looking at it. I obviously don’t ignore it altogether, and I do try my best, but I think creativity is more important because that’s where all the fun is.
ok, so this is going to go a bit deep into opening theory, but it is needed for me to get my point across. my card can only move horizontally btw, so keep that in mind.
these are the 5 points that you can play a single creature on as p2t1 if you move 2 steps forward, now there is a reference point for what I am saying.
- playing logcrusher at 1 allows it to threaten anything played on either of the top or middle mana tiles. this will force your opponent to either contest your overstated 3 drop or back away slightly, however it does leave you open to counters if they can successfully take it down.
- this does much the same thing as 1 but is more defensive and the opponent will have an easier time avoiding it if they also play defensively, it is far less open to being countered though.
- This is your suggestion as the optimal move in all scenarios, and while it does cover a large amount of the relevant board, it does not cover either of the remaining mana tiles. which would allow your opponent the ability to develop on the mana tiles without the fear of you being able to trade with them.
- This one does basically the same thing that 1 does but with respect to the bottom tile, which is even more likely to be taken so it practically garuntees a trade. However it is even weaker to being countered than 1 as your opponent can take the tile and still hit into your minion.
- This is again similar to 2 but with respect to the lower tile, it is again far stronger against being countered and killed as the enemy general can’t reach it, the disadvantage again is that the opponent can still back off and threaten the tile while remaining out of range.
- This play is the only one so far that threatens to ramp into 5 mana and is also the only one on the outer row that I would consider at this stage. You are going to eitehr be able to ramp or get a trade here with logcrusher, both of which are resonable outcomes. However it does come with the downside of not being able to impact the board if the opponent feels like it as it will be trapped at teh bottom.
- this is basically the same as 5 but with a more defensive general position for when your opponent is playing aggresively
- this is for if you want to be taking the mana tile with your minion and not you general, it again has the advantage of taking up most of teh map, but also teh disadvantage of not contesting either of teh outer mana tiles.
- is a more defensive version of 8 taht again is safer, but easier for your opponent to play around.
that was just the opening play and there were a couple more edge cases that I didn’t cover, there is a lot to consider with the risk/reward of playing this card given how restricted the movement is and that will only continue to grow later on into the game. Something else to note is that later in the game the fact that it is overstated becomes less relevant as when you have more mana you can deal with much larger threats than jsut a 4/5. Hopefully this shows you that putting it in the center row is not always the best strategy and there is a lot more to think about that jsut throwing it down there and hoping for good trades.