Fan Card Design Hub: Discussion (+Card Design Contest Discussion)

[thematsjo]

Thank you for your pertinent questions:

• Sundrop Elixir fulfills a separate role by actually providing a heal trigger while SA doesn’t (I’ve never seen Elixir played outside of Healyonar). Altar + Sunriser does nothing, unlike Elixir + Sunriser. In addition, Elixir is more flexible as it can target Minions directly. Obelysks have shown that Structures need to be pushed to see play, and Altar doesn’t pressure the opponent, unlike Obelysks. There is an argument for giving it 4 Health, but that makes it an easy target for the nigh-ubiquitous 4 damage from General + 2-drop.
• Altar doesn’t restore Health, it increases Health (no heal proc), the OG gives the card an immediate benefit that gives it utility even if it gets dispelled or attacked directly. Its lack of tempo and cantrip make it necessary, I feel.
• Altar only absorbs damage up to its remaining Health, excess damage is done to the General as usual. I feel the phrasing is in line with CP’s current philosophy where they prefer brevity over preciseness. Appending “up to its Health” would be a nice addition, if it fits on the card, space-wise.

After some consideration I believe we might even see this card come around in a Zealyonar and even Weapon-based Lyonar deck, because it allows them to survive longer as they trade damage. In my opinion damage to Generals should still ping Artifact durability.

Good luck, I hope I’ve adequately responded to your concerns. Please let me know if otherwise.

[martinsilenus]

Since somebody actually got interested let me put some thought into the design.

Well, first of all, seeing how Duelyst is playing with many fantasy tropes, I did not mean a huge hulking thing, but rather a nimble and agile “Ice Armor” of sorts.

I did not put to much thought into the actual effect though - I just followed the idea Behind BL to keep the thing ballanced - it gives less attack than BL, but more health, making it more defensive, and since the attack bonus is conditional, I felt 5 extra HP would make the card useful.

Thus, I want to address some of those issues.

Aspect of the Ice
Vanar Spell
6 mana
Transform your General into 4/15 Glacial Devastator with Ice Shred BBS.

Ice Shred
BBS
Deal 2 damage to an enemy. If it kills them, spawn a Blazing Spine on the same tile.

Spell cast has no effect on the state of your BBS. The spell can be recast to go back to 15 health. So multiple casts act as much needed heals for Vanar. I do not think it will be overpowered since 15 is not that much, especially if you are way behind on board.

This Design should be much better since it both supports Wall Vanar archetype and allows to build control decks with the fection due to pseudo-heal effect.

[nowayitsj]

If the general can’t move itll only move the minion, this is a trick to move the movement while not moving your general if youre against a wall.

Silhouette tracer actually isnt higher utility, only for the general. Positioning in this game is very important so being able to control enemy movements as well as your own is super important. If you need an enemy minion closer to you to get rid of you have the option, if you need one of your own units closer you have the option. This makes duelyst feel like you and your army are “one”.

Your general can be bended very similarly to tracer as well, except a bit fancier since you can move an ally minion to hit a distant minion while also moving your general. Also when you retreat you can make your units retreat.

Its imo a very thought filled card where you can move units without moving your general if youre against a wall. Or in general if you want to move something to or away from your army you need to think of the consequences this does to your general (or benefits too). Where you can move 3 spaces with tracer, this only affects your general, whereas moving any minion to give you favorable trades, as well as the option of moving your general 2 spaces while using a friendly minion as the target after it attacks is a lot more beneficial.

My thought was to make a card have the game feel like you and your units move as one, while having a wide versatility of options.

[oranos]

I could Nerf it to say “the start of your turn” instead of the end to give the opponent the ability to easily counter it. And that way, it would need 3 turns to equal shadow Nova. I made it a wall so that dispelling it would remove it. I was not thinking about vanar wall synergy since I believe walls and structures should not be limited to one faction.

[seththeseal]

The main design for Solidify was rather thematic at first. I thought it was interesting to have more in-type interactions, besides Dunecaster, 3rd Wish, Fireblaze and Windstorm. Another thing was the buff itself: It gives your Dervishes more survivability, meaning they can stay longer on board, and do more damage(Iron Dervishes).

Now about Solidify vs just the Obelysk. Obviously the card draw and 1 mana less, as you previously mentioned, but also: Abjudicator/Alcuin synergy. It could also be played with Whisper of The Sands, sacrificing one of prieviously spawned Dervishes for an extra reach to the enemy. Even more: The card is a great combo with Circle of Desacation (or similar name), making one of your Dervishes a Dervish generator, avoiding Circle itself. You would probably miss 2 damage, but your board is more powerful after Circle, on the following turn.

Now onto the purpouse. Its a good point and I’m afraid, that beyond giving you card advantage, there is nothing more this card would offer. You would just play it for cycle and the “discounted” Obelysk.

I hope you are satisfied with those answers and thanks for good, constructive criticism

[attheedge]

Let’s discuss more contest cards

[details=Enter the Dragon]
@karsticles
This is one of the most interesting cards so far. I love the idea behind it, although it is a bit overpowered at the moment. Your opponent is basically not able to move, since it would result in 9 damage on face. I suggest setting the attack to 0 (because it is a Structure), increasing health and reducing the damage dealing.[/details]

[details=Bonechill Mystic]
@nindo
This is exactly what stunned needs. But I think it is underpowered atm, especially because you need stunned minions to use this effect. I would additionaly think of an Opening Gambit that stuns a random enemy or something similar, to get immidiate value out of this card.[/details]

Honorable mentions:
Communal Lifeforce by @agentcamp
Illuminator by @buyingcoats
Keikai by @raqyee

[nindo]

For Bonechill Mystic: I remember when i first learned how stunned worked being suprised that there was a counter attack. In order to really push existing stun cards into viability this is a great option i think.
Winterblade now preserves durability charges when used offensively. Flash freeze and icy opening gambit can allow a swarm to take down a large minion and survive.
Having infaction healing would do wonders to make control vanar more powerful, but improving on the strong theme of stun is another way.
I will think about editing the entry with bringing the power level up some as you suggested.

[thefirstgokun]

Even for 7-mana, the ability seems much too strong (and combo-ability too great, as you pointed out).
When would the ability trigger…? Immediately after each movement (i.e. no other minion does this)? What happens when 2 are on the board, and 1 moves behind the other? Are these intuitive design interactions?
Would the triggering of its ability exhaust it? If not, is that balanced and/or interactive?
Why does it have Backstab (3) if it never gets to use it (except on Generals)? Does that kind of design seem necessary?

Thanks for your insight and questions! I figured for my entry I didn’t want to make a ball of stats as much as I wanted to make a removal card with SongHai flavor (which is why it also has Backstab, for the interactions with Killing Edge and Shadow Waltz). The ability triggers if there is any enemy minion directly behind this minion, checking the condition whenever the boardstate changes. In retrospect, the body was probably too strong considering the effect and cost.

[ancientmage]

RIP I completely forgot about scientist. Do we still have an opportunity to change our submissions?

[freud]

Right, imp master is the inspiration. That said, many card games have completely identical cards, mechanics, and game play elements so there should be no problem here. The body is solid and where as imp master sees no play in hearthstone, it is a card that would be a 3x is all writhing decks in Duelyst. I think the concern is a little bit unwarranted.

[eryth]

My previous design was: “Opening Gambit: If this minion has been summoned via Darkfire Sacrifice, give it +1/+2 and Celerity.”

The problem I had with it, which is why I decided to edit, was that it was too specific and too limiting for the archetype. I mean, if this card were really in the game, then Ramp players would NEED to use Darkfire Sacrifice SPECIFICALLY on this creature, in order to make it viable. It is a 2/3 for 4, so they would need to ramp it up with Darkfire Sacrifice, or otherwise they would be wasting a lot of tempo, since players want to be playing proactive 4 drops, and not a 2/3 one.

As of why it would limit the archetype: Ramp Abyss is an archetype that seeks to bring late game creatures earlier in the game, so that they can pressure the opponent faster. The problem is: if you have a creature that interacts specifically with Darkfire Sacrifice, then you are monopolizing it for that creature only, meaning that if you don’t ramp it, then that creature is useless. If I use all of my 3 Darkfire Sacrifices ramping any creature other than Moonlight Seeker, then it becomes a 2/3 4 drop with no abilities, meaning that it would be a dead card, since playing it would be a huge tempo loss, because no one wants to play a 2/3 for 4 that doesn’t impact the board immediately. That alone would kill the whole archetype strategy, since you want to be ramping as much BIG minions as you can.

Example: Unseven is 2/4 for 4 with a strong Dying Wish effect, but it is also a huge tempo loss on curve due to it’s weak body for the cost. In order to get value from it, one MUST make use of it’s Dying Wish. If it gets dispelled, then the player probably have lost the game already, since a 2/4 for 4 means an incredible loss on tempo by itself, even if it has a really good effect (L’Kian is an exception, I guess, since she doesn’t need the actual body to impact the board). And, if you can’t get value from the effect, then… uh, it’s pretty much a useless card.

Then, there comes the other scenario: Say that I have used all of my 3 Darkfire Sacrifices to ramp Moonlight Seeker in order to make it a 3/5 Celerity minion for 2. Oh, 3 3/5 Celerity minions for 2 each? Seems good, right? No. Why? Because this would make the player feel obligated to ramp Moonlight Seeker only, meaning that if he wanted to ramp, say, a Spectral Revenant on turn 5, he would likely NOT do it, since it would make Moonlight Seeker literally useless. Therefore, it would kill the whole archetype strategy, since you want to be accelerating the most number of “fat” creatures you can. Being in a dilemma of which minion to Ramp out is not what the archetype wants, let alone a 4 mana one.

Then, my edited design comes into discussion:

Opening Gambit: If you have sacrificed at least one wraithling via Darkfire Sacrifice since your last turn, give this minion +1/+2 and Celerity.

Why the “wraithling only” and “since your last turn” restrictions, you ask? Well, this card was designed with Lilithe’s BBS in mind, since it is very, very rare to see someone playing Ramp Cassyva. Lilithe naturally interacts better with the Ramp archetype, so does Cassyva with Creep.

As of the second restriction: I think it solves the archetype limiting problem I’ve stated earlier; if the player decides to sacrifice a wraithling on turn 5 in order to ramp a Spectral Revenant, then he could cast a 3/5 Celerity minion for 4 on the next turn without feeling obligated to choose between which minion to ramp, meaning that he wouldn’t need to have a dead card each turn.

The idea is to give some incentive to the archetype in the form of a minion that benefits from Darkfire Sacrifice indirectly, meaning that it would be possible to ramp big creatures out while also having a great tool to support them.

@Edit: I hope this comment can clarify the philosophy behind the card ^^

[bolthero]

I created SunForge Duelyst to give lyonar an alternate way to provoke longrange or minions too big for other minions to attack. This minion is Kinda Like a Gladiator/Fencer that challenges minions to duels. Its old effect was An Opening Gambit:Add 2 truestrikes which was just a better sterope So I thought of something else. Some of the other effects I thought of were the same effect but added when either minion dies the other it gains 2+/2+ which would give you a reason to kill the minion would be a double edge sword if the minion its challenged kills it. I probably should add that they can’t be attack by anything else but that minion Like Panddo effect.

[narasimha]

My King of Crusaders is pretty simple. I’ve always felt it would be more interesting for other factions to have unique terrain effects like Shadow Creep. Of all the factions, Lyonar has the most direct healing, and Zeal is their unique Keyword. Thus, Sanctuary tiles were born. The more damage the King does, the more tiles he creates, and the harder it becomes for your opponent to ping down your minions.

[attheedge]

Yeah, you are able to edit your design until the 15th.

[obsidianbottle]

Grrr… I’m really torn on what to do with my card.

I like the dynamic it creates, with the enemy wanting to leave it at 1 or 2 hp so they get the spell back and the player wanting to prevent it.

This creates situations where the player needing to contemplate how the enemy can counterplay in a way never before, except against Sunset Paragon or Zen’rui, maybe. Like, buffing it’s health to 5 (post-effect) versus Vanar is bad, because the opponent can just cryogenisis it, but the player will want to it’s health for more 1st wish value.

Or against Songhai, they will want to have an 1st wish in hand first to prevent the phoenix fire punish. Though that’s already happening now with other cards.

The enemy can also feel clever when they sundrop elixir + Zir’ran BBS it and getting a BBS card while killing it for free (card wise).

But the card is so punishable and the text might be too complex, the effect might also be too weak and the card needs to be played for the situation above to happen and for the card’s existence justified…

And I’m not sure what to do with it.

Buffing it’s health might not even be a buff, as it will be easier to punish. Nerfing it’s self damage to 1 is unacceptable as infinitting 1st wishes is too stupid. Removing the self damage or enemy’s spell proccing it kills large portion of the card’s nuance (also again, 1st wish.).

For now, I will change it to a 2/3, Archayst & Dervish. But it might be too much for 1 card, with it being not only having a complex effect, and not 1 but 2 subtypes to interact with.

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Right, what deck would you build if this card is in the game right now?
Seems ok in aggro, with 1st wish it’s an immediate Void Hunter, with 2nd wish it’s a 4 mana upgraded silver tongue corsair, with cosmic flash it’s a bad shield master. It might be too versatile. Or I might be second guessing to much. Edit: Never mind, that’s garbage. It’s a 2/4 now. Should have had some tea or something.

[auroreon]

Forced synergy - when an effect is significant dependent on another to function - is typically very unhealthy in any design. You have at least 2, maybe 3, examples of it:

1. Wraithling target
2. Darkfire Sacrifice use
3. Last Turn

To preserve your idea for a minion, I offer the following

1. If this minion was summoned with a reduced cost gain +1/+1 and Celerity.

2. Add a Darkfire Sacrifice to your action bar. Minions summoned with a reduced cost gain +1/+1 and Celerity.

3. Add a Bloodmoon Sacrifice to your action bar.
   Bloodmoon Sacrfice: Destroy a friendly minion. The next minion you summon costs 2 less and gains +1/+1 and Celerity.

[auroreon]

Hey all, I am really enjoying thinking of all this design.
Looking for some feedback regarding a concept:

Forlorn Gravedigger

Abyssian, (Minion/Spell/Artifact)
“Summon the most recent non-token minion on the space it died on with 1 health.”

[details=Version 1, Minion]
Forlorn Gravedigger
Abyssian, Minion
4 Mana (4/1)
Opening Gambit: Select a tile and summon the most recent non-token minion that died on that tile with 1 health.[/details]

[details=Version 2, Battle Pet]
Dig
Abyssian, Battle Pet
5 Mana (2/5)
Moves to the nearest, unoccupied space that a non-token minion died on and summons it with 1 health once.[/details]

[details=Version 3, Spell]
Forlorn Exhumation
Abyssian, Spell
3 Mana
Select a space and summon the most recent non-token minion that died on that space with 1 health. Draw a card.[/details]

[details=Version 4, Artifact]
Forlorn Tears
Abyssian, Artifact
4 Mana
When your General moves, summon the last non-token minion that died on the space your General is standing on nearby. It has 1 health.[/details]

• Version 1
• Version 2
• Version 3
• Version 4

Show results

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I think it would be at least interesting to be rewarded for remembering where minions fell.
P.S. If anyone wants a review, just PM me and I’ll reply.

[oranos]

though i love the idea of abyssian necromancers and the ability to undo the enemies removal, i think that mechanic would be difficult to keep track of. it really leads itself to dying wish and ramp decks since you could get double dying wish effects or resummon that revenant to finish the enemy off. i mean, just imagine the version 3 spell bringing back a revenant, suiciding it against something, then using the spell 2 more times to bring back 2 more revenants. thats potentially 12-18 face damage out of hand. its double baconators all over again. the artifact is weak and wouldn’t see play since most abyssian archtypes are control not aggro. the battle pet is weirdly worded. does it only summon a creature when it moves? what if your opponent places a minion right next to it. it wont move and its useless. and does it summon before attacking or after? because it could kill an enemy minion and resummon it.

[auroreon]

Thanks for the replay. I too really want to see more Necromancer style play. More than just Ramp or Swarm and something that can immediate impact versus the slower Death Watch and Dying Wish.

Numbers can always change, and if the Spell version fits better as a 4 or more mana card, than that is great. Another balancing measure is not allowing movement.

Concept is most important and I think the design already open a lot of non-linear gameplay up and an answer to typical tempo loss via removal or dispel but also offensive by “stealing” an opponent’s minion you killed or they traded.

The Battle Pet is weird but this was the goal: This Battle Pet automatically tries move near tiles where something dies and summons something if its in range. Or it could attack, whichever is closer because its not controllable and that’s part of that kind of balance.

In summary, it has a strong and versatile effects. There are ways to balance it, including the inherent need to remember and select the right tile.

[agentcamp]

While Magmar is by no means my favorite faction, I have a soft spot for Grow. I come from Magic the Gathering where green was the color I started out with and remains one of my favorites. So I’m always noodling over ways to make Grow adapt to such a fast paced meta where you don’t get to “not block” with them until they are monsters. Communal Lifeforce is one of my favorite ideas so far.

I have a 2nd idea, but I’ll save that for a future contest (it’s a bit more complex so I’m still working on refining it).