It doesnt sound like rush, while i agree with giving it plus 1 hp, id keep the attack, or at most make it 2. It only MOVES when played, if this wasnt a key difference from rush I think he woulda put rush there.
Faction Concept: The Gruvolm Conclave
Iâm not too sure whether he meant rush or just move, Iâll wait to hear a response from him but most likely you are right. In which case the attack is fine at 3 and health should stay at 3 as well. Too much health would let you put tiles everywhere furthering allowing you to abuse the artifacts assuming he changes them to something I suggested. Iâm actually considering bringing the health down to 2.
Iâm conflicted though on whether it should just have rush instead as that would be a lot less complicated. OP, if you insist on move then I would suggest making it into a new keyword instead.
On the same note, I also would like CPG to make Lavaslasherâs ability into a keyword instead.
alot happened over night >_>;;;
let me try my best to reply to it all
Summary
thanks for the complements your right about crystalize being similar to frostfire, not sure how i wanna change it though, i feel Fossilize is fair because it both leaves a body (even if it cant move or attack it isnt able to get rid of any effects the minion had) im debaiting about if lowering the cost is fair since i was thinking of taking advantage of the fact that they became structures with another card or 2.
Summary
thanks for the comments ill go over all the cards in phoenixtalons reply.
Summary
thanks for the compliment, i hope to fully flesh it out someday, admittedly i have alot of free time at work so i take some time here and there to work on it.
Summary
lot off feedback is very appreciated ill do my best to reply to your oppinions on everything and make changes to everything.
Summary
Crystalize
your right on not being the greatest, the card itself is mostly meant to be a golem deck card and i worry if i make every card incredibly good the faction might be too strong overall, i had though about changing it two to mana and making it be a can trip but im unsure.
Miniralite
your probably right, the reason i made it was to try and create a 1 mana golem i imagine you pairing this with the likes of metallurgist or a 3 mana golem to potentially buff your turn 1 play
definately right about it being changed to Dying wish, as for the buff itself i could change it to give more stats but i dont want it to be too strong so its why its where it is for now.
Seismic Toss
its supposed to be nearby your general, as for movement its meant to be anywhere and actually interact with movement effects (this card exists to mainly to support urjarak to get his bbs to deal the damage and i wouldnât call echoing tunnel mobility as you dont use it to move with it, the effect is a pseudo range which also has cards to support it (though i had thought of adding movement cards which utilized echoing tunnel).
Tumult
its just a means to add an in faction dispell really i imagine its not too strong but not too weak either.
Shrill Shrew
yea, im just worried about making there stats too strong, the (1) there is similar to songhai backstab in which case how it works here will do bonus damage when you attack utilizing the keyword so its echo +1 damage if you do an attack without echo it will only do 1 damage.
Stalagmite Lance
thanks i like the card idea as well.
the idea of this card is to help close the gap also help patch up a weakness of the dig keyword
you might be right about upping the cost one but as for your notes, maybe i missed it but what do you mean by general gains tunnel? the reason i have it worded rather then a keyword is because i cant just make multiple keywords if i did i worry i might be giving the faction too much.
Shovel Worm
to answer both yours and loliconartists question, its not a rush card its specifically move only and used to quickly support an echo minion, lets say you played shrill shrew turn 1, this minion can be played turn 2 to both move in to act as a body block and or more importantly to provide echoing tunnel for the other minion.
Quaking battlecry
the reason i didnt want to put it at 2 is because tempest exists, i felt the damage tempest does is why it can be such a cheap aoe for songhai that being said definately will change the wording there atleast.
Fossilize
as i said to hal, im unsure if i should but you may be right here about lowering the cost.
Tunnel Colapser
well i like shrew so id rather not delete him but as for the card itself i could make changes to him, admittedly not sure what wold be best to change about it.
Soulore Golem
i have to disagree here, ragebinder is a heal (and even has rebirth making it quite strong. where this boosts the generals healthpool (does not add any actual health) binder is definately much stronger but as if said im mainly being careful of making the factions minions too strong, the very idea of hildeguard is about durability and i want to make cards both make her able to take more hits or be capable of utilizing ever increasing healthpool for a devistating blow.
that being said i could buff the minion if nothing else.
Ancient drill
im not sure decreasing the mana to 1 would be a good idea, any movement in duelyst is strong and suddenly being able to move out of a corner to the other side of the map (and in bacchus case even use his bbs to attack from the other side of the map once you move is quite a powerplay. ill look into changing it.
Golem Core Rune
imagine playing a drybone golem the previous turn and this turn you attack it, your general heals for a staggering 10 health at the cost of damaging your bone, the healing is ment to help stall the game till the wincon is available, admittedly ive yet to think of how i want the wincon to work (aria of rejuvination is a wincon itself if you think about it. but one idea i had was to utilize hideguards healthpool to deal big damage.
Aria of Rejuvination
perhaps your right about increasing the cost but if you think about it getting to 9 mana is tough so having other heal sources is neccisary, ill think about making a change or two.
Grandmaster Meitheal
id disagree, lyonars isnt immidiate which gives it the benefit of using it as a minion or buffing it before you die, grandmasters are ment to be gamechangers, and a gm that adds 10 flat health, buffs your general, and reduces your bbs to 0 is quite strong, especially since you can play it more then one for even more buffs (imagine if you could play 2 more times in a row even without the mana reduction or stun thats pretty nasty).
that being said what would you suggest for a grandmaster if i were to change it entirely?
i know theres much to do to fix things up and add, i really do appreciate the opinions regardless on how i handle changing things.
i do like the idea of making the faction part shaman you had there, but would like to focus on the factions full core set before i mess with the lore reguarding the faction.
edit: minor changes have been made, bigger ones will happen when i finish the core set. :>
3 Likes
Oh dear, you've made a lot of changes but I'm still going to submit this critique anyways. Lots of love and I want to see you succeed so I hope this doesn't come across as too mean. TL;DR: Love Dig, suggest changes on a lot of other things.
First of all, congrats on your concept presentation and thanks for a simple, yet interesting read. You understand that Basic cards and Generals are meant to teach the player what your faction is about. In terms of flavor, youâre tapping into a bit of Vetruvian and a bit of Magmar, which may be a touch too narrow without further lore ideation, but I think thereâs real potential here.
I wonât be reviewing individual cards, as that takes a while and I believe you should address a design challenge from the root. Allow me to discuss each of your generals individually, as I feel they each represent a unique, core issue to be addressed. Oh, and Iâll try to keep away from anything @phoenixtoasches said in their post above. Anything that I agree with of course. Something tells me Iâm gonna butt heads with their ideas quite a bit, but you can choose who you prefer to listen to on this matter.
Ujarak the Catapult: Letâs talk about the Boulder. Iâm not a fan at all of this design, being a 1 mana 5 damage spell every other turn (every turn in the late game). Yeah, it has to attack, but its on a 0/5 body, which is just tough enough to be annoying. Yeah, it has a limited range, but if Iâm reading Dig correctly it will typically cover a little more than half the board (and almost all the strategically important spots). This is oppressively strong against all but the most steamrolly-est decks.
Furthermore, it doesnât make much sense with the character. Heâs throwing these boulders right? Why is this interpreted as a Structure being created which then most dig its way to a target and explode when it is standing next to it? Plus, the mechanics are much too complicated for a Bloodbound Spell. Itâs a disconnect in every way. The Boulder has to go.
My suggestion is to scrap this idea for now and come back to it when youâve chosen a secondary/tertiary mechanical center for the faction. Promise Iâll come back to him later, so donât worry about this for now. Just think of him as an empty general space to be filled later, with some built in character.
Hildeguard the Fortress: Now, I see what youâre doing with the âhealth poolâ wording instead of straight healing. It sounds fun to build a General with 50 health instead of 25 and then heal right back to full, right? Iâd dare to call Health Growth your second faction mechanic thus far, following up behind Dig/Echo. I wouldnât put too much stake in this mechanic though. First, it makes dispel cards a serious feel-bad that reverses everything youâve done so far. This is different from Grow minions/Obelysks being dispelled, as they at least leave bodies behind unless theyâve been given some turns to trade and grow (by which point theyâve done their job). Building Health Growth will lead to huge feels-bad moments when the late-game dispel hits you, especially if youâve sacrificed friendly minions to your health pool with Hildeguardâs ability (remember, the generalsâ Bloodbound Spells are guidelines by which players will approach your factionâs gameplay).
I suggest scrapping this BBS as well, as its unexciting, unintuitive, and will make your players sad. You donât need to entirely abandon the idea of keeping up your generalâs health: Aria of Rejuvenation is a big, powerful spell that is totally worth the mana spent to cast it. However, I wouldnât make it so central to your factionâs design. Move away from the health buffs and focus more on what makes your faction great, which as I see it is Dig.
Bacchus the Thunderous: Notice I didnât say Dig AND Echo, and thereâs a reason for that. Iâll start by saying that Dig is a cool mechanic. A limited version of flying that creates tunnels sounds like an awesome tool to play around with on a board. The question you should ask yourself is: what cool strategic choices can we explore here?
A mantra to hold dear: âRestriction breeds creativity.â Sure, a minion that can dig from back row to front row is stronger, but a minion that can dig three spaces instead of walking two spaces has strength without losing tactics. Consider what digging means as opposed to walking: if youâre underground you can obviously travel through other minions, but what if you could dodge provoke too? What if a minion had to move three spaces to dig and otherwise moved normally? What if a Dig minion had normal movement restrictions except it could also move to any Tunnel, making it a beefy flyer as the game went on and more Tunnels got created? Interactions with existing mechanics are key: as it stands, the mechanic is basically Flying, which makes it incredibly dangerous to put on a Frenzy or Celerity minion. This mechanic has a lot of room for exploration, so think about all the scenarios where each version of this ability works and find the best one.
Now for Digâs companion mechanic. Dig and Echo are both cool, new, interesting mechanics with plenty of creative potential. However, where Dig is a version of Flying that was toned down ever so slightly, Echo is a version of Ranged that was shot in the leg and left in the woods to be eaten by Saberspine Tigers. Echo minions require you to run the Dig minions or tunnel creators, then they require you to position them next to the tunnels, and then they require the opponent to maneuver onto the tunnels. While this is brimming with possibilities for cool board states, its a poorly made mechanic because it relies on so many other mechanics to do anything, and the payoff is a restrictive version of Ranged. Echo could be interesting as a one-off ability on a card that read something like: âShrill Shrew; 2 Mana Minion; 1/2; Ranged, Deals double damage to enemies nearby Tunnels.â I just donât think the current use case is broad or common enough to bother keywording the mechanic.
Suggestion: Scrap the BBS, put a pin in Echo for the moment, and focus on the cool things you can do with Dig.
One more theme to talk about: Golems. I like the connection between Golems and the tribe (like Vespyrs and Vanar, but more broadly connected to existing cards) but I wouldnât put those cards at Basic. Golems are fine as incidental creature types, but introducing tribal synergies at the Basic level is just too soon. You should first be establishing your basic ideas, which are (as far as I see it):
- Dig creatures who make Tunnels
- Non-flying/teleporting movement options
- General mobility and tankiness
- Creatures with lots of health
These are fine thematic centers, and they should be represented in your Basics. Miniralite and Crystallize are cool additions to the Gruvolm for their Ancient Bonds cards, but they shouldnât be included over more constructive cards like, for example, a minion that reduces damage taken by it or your general by X.
Naturally, youâll need to DIG a little DEEPER to find a SOLID CORE to this faction concept. Maybe consider a different sound-based mechanic, like a minion that when it deals attacks, also damages the minion directly opposite it with a piercing sonic attack? Or play into the darkness aspect of the faction, and have minions that canât be targeted by minions until they attack? Or mine that barbarian theme, and have minions that activate abilities when they are hurt? Then once youâre done with that, match the generals to the respective archetypes without shoehorning them into specific decks.
Overall, excellent idea with Dig and a cool theme to work with. Thereâs lots to explore here, so have fun with it and Iâll wait excitedly for your next update!
1 Like
thanks for the reply
whoo boy lets try to go through this
firstly just to clarify how dig and echo work i made an example below (sorry if its a tad sloppy)
as you might knowtice dig cant move diagonally (its kinda the blast for movement).
with that said my thoughts about the generals
Ujarak
Summary
it is indeed a powerful endgame spell, however with the restrictions set in place i feel it wont be as oppressive as you think, i do however wounder about lowering its health and or damage done, on one end ill use phoenix fire as an example, its a 2 mana spell that does 3 damage without restriction and urjaraks bbs has plenty of restrictions (unable to attack and unable to move diagonally, cant move till the turn after its played) that being said i could lower its health and damage to three to make it easier to answer and tank damage from.
Hildeguard
Summary
you are correct about dispel being a problem id make it undispellable itd likely be too strongâŚi have also concidered potentially having a way to gain your dispelled healthpool back.
while i dont disagree with your opinion id like to keep the healthpool mechanic of the faction work with it and find a way to make it fun. (on a side note id like to say the idea of healthpool for this faction comes from the idea of what a rock is, durable and also fits with the barbarian theme of the faction, warrior who can take the damaged dished and shrug it off).
Bacchus
Summary
i can see where your coming from about echo, i had planned to add spells that could spawn tunnels but yes the main weakness is its over reliant on dig minions itself, i think ill continue to work with it for now but might rework the foundation of the echo keyword (and anything with echo) once ive completed work on the core set.
anyways thanks for all the criticism, ill definately to take to heart what you said as i continure to work with it and hopefully it makes the faction better overall. :>
1 Like
so having thought about the echo keyword id like to ask an opinion on a change to it to reduce its reliance on echoing tunnel.
Summary
Echo: units with this keyword may attack enemies near a friendly unit or echoing tunnel tiles if they are near another echoing tunnel.
(excuse me if i have worded it wrong) a simple change that allows the minion with echo to attack a target if a friendly minion is near the enemy in this case no tiles are needed, however if tunnel tiles are present it may do so if the minion itself is near a tile.
another change im thinking of involves the expanding healthpool aspect of the faction
afew ideas im thinking of are below.
Summary
-
A card or 2 that can make the current healthpool of the general permanent.
-
A change to Hildeguards bbs which makes the healthpool a permenant gain every 5 health gained.
-
A counter that records the amount of health gained and change to aria of rejuvination in
which can restore previously dispelled health.
Note: the ideas here arent neccisarily meant to be all be implemented together only ideas to improve this particular mechanic of the faction.
Personally not sold on Echo as pseudo-Ranged. I really think you should reconsider this design.
Perhaps if it was more like a projectile and could only target the first minion in a line? It would be a blast that you can body-block for, meaning the minions you put it on could be beefier. A 2 Mana 2/2 Ranged would be way too strong, but a 2 Mana 2/2 Echo? Feels more like Barbarians anyway: they like to just smash the first thing they come in contact with 
Iâll admit, Iâve sort of warned to this idea of healthgain. If youâre really going for that theme, Iâm sure the rules can be bent a bit with proper wording. Example:
- 2 Mana 2/3 âOpening Gambit: Gain +2 health permanently.â
As long as its specifically worded as âpermanentlyâ, listed in your Mechanics section, and shows up at Basic and Common rarities, I think it should be fine. Right now, it appears once at rare and is supported thrice at legendary, which seems a little imbalanced.
Of course, there should be more reasons to build health besides being able to overheal. Aria of Rejuvenation is cool, but if there are no other reasons to gain health then thereâs no point to the mechanic. Maybe if you keyword âHealthpoolâ as its own mechanic you can have cards like âGive target friendly minion +Health equal to your Healthpool.â and âDeal damage to target creature equal to your Healthpool.â But, um, donât make those spells, because they wonât do anything outside of a Healthpool deck. Theyâre just proof of concept.
hmmâŚso for echo your saying something like
âunits with this keyword may attack the first enemy unit in any directionâ?
then perhaps change echoing tunnel to extend that range in some way?
as for your thoughts on the healthpool, i have plenty of ideas to make cards that can take advantage of a larger then normal healthpool and havent gotten around to adding in the lower rarity ones yet, you actually mentioned one i was thinking about (the damage = the amount over the base healthpool).
Edit: changes have been made
1 Like
new cards added below
Common
Berzerkers Charge
0 mana Spell
Choose a friendly minion, move it anywhere in a cardinal direction from its location,
Buried Relic
1 mana Spell
place an Echoing Tunnel near your general or a friendly minion, draw a card.
Vengeful Strike
1 mana Spell
if youâve taken damage on your enemies turn, remove the amount of health taken from your healthpool permanently and deal it to an enemy minion.
Harmonious Wisp
2 mana Minion
2/1
Opening Gambit: Gain +2 health permanently.
Bloodetched Ward
3 mana Spell
-3 from your healthpool Permenantly, give a friendly minion Barrier and it cannot be targeted by spells.
Stoneform Artisan
3 mana Minion
1/5
whenever this minion takes damage, summon a Mineralite near it.
Boulder Transporter
4 mana Golem
3/5
when this minion moves, all nearby friendly units move with it.
Realy cool concept! I think you have a lot of potential in this concept, and i would like to make a suggestion to capitalize on what i think makes this faction stand out. The concept of the sound and lack of vision. giving the option to create a âsonarâ keyword: Minions with sonar canât move, but can teleport to any minion or general on the same row and collum.
And what if the Gruvolm Conclave could bring the darkness to the world above? giving the faction some options to limit movements and disorient the enemy while adding movement and boosting your own minions?
Love the concept and iâm looking forward to updates!
thanks for the comment :>
the thing about adding more keywords is if i were too it would become Cluttered, think about it every faction in game currently only has 1 or 2 keywords, any thing else that factions build around are more themes the faction plays with, so while i wont add another keyword there could be minions that utilize ideas like that as i continue to work on the faction.
1 Like
new cards added
Rare
Golumize
2 mana Spell
change a friendly minions tribe into golem, give it 3 health, give it 3 attack instead if the minion was a golem.
Soulore Golem
3 mana Golem
2/6
bond: add +1 to your generals healthpool.
Earthfall
4 mana Spell
deal 4 damage to an enemy minion, if it dies summon a large bolder in its place.
War Chant
4 mana Spell
Draw 2 cards, add +3 to your healthpool for each minion drawn.
Cave Bellower
4 mana Minion
4/3
Echo
may move to any echoing tunnel on the battlefield.
Vicious Moleshark
5 mana Minion
5/4
Dig
Opening Gambit: Destroy an enemy minion near an echoing tunnel.
Legendary
Sound Sister Runa
4 Mana Minion
4/4
whenever your generals healthpool increases, give your minions +1 health.
1 Like
New cards added
Legendary
Skill-Eater Bowyn
3 mana Minion
1/3
opening Gambit:choose an enemy minion, dispel it and add any keywords it had it to Skill-Eater Bowyn.
Call of Savagry
5 mana Spell
choose an enemy minion, take control of it this turn.
Phoenix Gem Golem
7 mana Minion
4/4 Golem
when this minion leaves the battlefield put a Phoenix Gem Core on this space.
Phoenix Gem Core
0/0 Structure
Invulnerable
Build (1)
Edit: core epics have been added
Epic
Symbol of Exaltation
2 mana Structure
0/3
you may transform this structure into a minion from your hand instead of summoning it, it costs 2 less.
Silent March
3 mana Spell
Dispel all minions and generals, give your minions 2 health.
Onslaught
4 mana Spell
choose a friendly unit, deal 3 damage to the first enemy minion in all directions from it.
WorldShaking Might
6 mana Spell
give a friendly minion +8 attack, it cannot be dispelled
Shrill Brood-mother
6 mana Minion
Echo
2/8
when this minions attack passes an echoing tunnel to hit a target, it hits the first enemy in all directions of the first tile it passes through.
with that the core set is complete.
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