Do you think Kara BBS and Saberspine tiger is a balanced interaction?


#1

Simple question

You think Kara BBS and Tiger is a fair interaction?

Kara Vanar is clearly the best deck in the game and after playing being on the other end of Tiger and using Tiger to finish off.It feels too strong of a tool for deck of that type it .Kara plays this very control game removing things from board and turns small minions into big threats and that alone is very powerful I think but while doing Kara has ability to create these tactical nukes.The strongest case for tiger being over powered is the game had 4/1 tigers and that was deemed to strong and got nerf

Now here is the tricky part ,I don’t Tiger interaction is unfair with anything else but leaving tiger as is or simply raise the cost of tiger doesnt fix anything.The only thing I can think of make tiger not work with bbs spells which hurts Lyonar.

Now I am guessing some people will say that Tiger is fine or how will Kara operate without tiger.Kara would be just fine without tiger and if Kara needs a sudden burst then Spirit of Wild plus 1 or 2 drops should be the tools used imo.What do you guys think it will only get worse with the expansion with new teleporting spell.


#2

The problem is in Kara’s BBS: It’s broken. And yes, broken, B-R-O-K-E-N: BROKEN. That’s how I qualify it. I knew since it was announced that it would cause trouble, I mean, c’mon… You’ve got to be blind not to see it.
I don’t know what CP was thinking when they decided to introduce a spell like this. I would understand if it was regular card or a minion with Opening Gambit, but a BBS?!

  • First: Minions have a stat line to balance their ability. They pay stats for it, the stronger the ability, the higher is the price. Kara, however, totally ignores this rule. The ability to give +1/+1 to ALL the Minions in your hand is ridiculous. War Surge, which has a similar effect but limited to minions on the board is nothing compared to Kinetic Surge, it is outclassed with a huge margin.

  • Second: Not only it happens in your hand but your opponent CAN’T do anything to answer it, plus, he doesn’t have any way to know what you’re building to prepare for it until you drop the big bomb. Then, it will be too late to try to find an answer.

  • Third: It costs only 1 mana and it’s available each 2 turns until 9 mana cores when you can cast it every turn. Unlike the other BBSs, it doesn’t require any condition in special: it’s a “brainless” spell, you don’t have to think, just cast it whenever it’s available and you’re ready to go.

  • Fourth: Why do you think Vanar has the weakest Minions compared to the other factions? It’s due to their insane single target removal. Just imagine if Vanar had the beefy minions of Lyonar or Magmar, it would be straight up broken. Not only they have answers to everything but they are soooo cheap! They would be able to remove anything you throw at them with a super cheap spell and summon big boy after big boy in your face without letting you any way to answer. What does Kara do? She ignores this limitation.

  • Fifth: No one, absolutely no one wants to face a faction which can remove anything from the field with a single card and summon an overstatted minion for it’s cost in the process. A 6/5 minion with rush for 3 mana? 3 4/5 minions for 5 mana? A 7/6 minion with Forcefield for 4 mana? A 6/9 minion with provoke for 4 mana? Yeah, right… It’s so unfair it’s ridiculous…

People will defend it saying “but it’s too slow”, with Shadow Nova gone we can expect more Midrange and Control decks on the ladder, so the metagame will slow down a little bit unless Shim’zar says something else, so the “slow” excuse isn’t accepted. That alone doesn’t cover the fact that she can bombard you with low cost minions yet with stats matching your Khymera’s in late game.

Limiting the effect to 1 or 2 minions would solve it, or make it give +1/+0 or +0/+1 randomly distributed across all the minions in your hand, or make it so when you dispel the general it removes all the buffs, like Vaath’s BBS.

Kara is the only problem I have with the game right now (alongside with Divine Bond). I was going to make a separate thread about it but since you asked, here it is.


#3

I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your case, but you can’t just say “a 6/5 with rush for 3 mana.” You’re ignoring the cost of the BBS and the turns it takes to build up. You might as well say “a 50/49 with rush for 3 mana”

More accurately, it would be “a 6/5 with rush for 6 mana over the course of at least 3 turns”

I also wouldn’t consider the spell to be entirely brainless in the early game. A serious question you must consider is “do I play a 4 mana minion and cast BBS or do I cast a 5 mana minion”


#4

I don’t know if it is too strong if you compare it to the other win con like shadow nova/spiral spiral/makantor/spectral revenant, but for sure this combo is a pain in the ass it is not fun nor strategic, the kara mirror which could be a very interesting MU is in fact the dumbest MU ever because of tiger/surge.

My opinion is that the BBS of kara would be completely fine without tiger, the problem is the rush keyword in general. Everything that has rush is OP it would be so simple for CP to rework the rush keyword.

Also I would like CP to realize that cards that kills people out of nowhere like spiral or shadow nova should not be a thing !(yeah there are going to rework shadow nova but we are getting obliterate instead which also does face damage -_-).

I have played countless TCG before and this is the first time that I find a game with that many ways to kill people out of nowhere , this is seriously an issue in term of balance and fun.


#5

but… but… 4 - 5 mana minion is rarely seen on Kara’s deck (yeah sometimes I saw dancing blades & zenrui in their deck), but most of their deck is filled with 1-3 mana minions.

and in a match, most of time when Kara hit 5 mana they will cast 2x 2 mana minions (3/3) / (3/4) or a shieldmaster (4/7 +provoke!)
It’s a bit hard to counter those minions though. And if you can’t deal with them, you will likely losing 5-8 general hp next turn. (it hurts, man)

If Kara’s BBS won’t changed i think we need minions/spells that have discard effect (example: remove the most left card on hand. or whatever…) because we already have so many draw engine minions/spells, so why not discard engine minions/spells? (maybe Starhorn BBS? draw card 1 for self - opponent must discard 1 card then draw 1 card)


#6

Let’s take Greater Fortitude as a reference. It gives +2/+2 for 1 mana, so a 1 mana buff is worth 4 stats. For Kinetic surge to match that cost it has to give +1/+1 to 2 minions, that’s a total of 4 stats. Now let’s suppose you have 4 minions in hand, you cast Kinetic Surge and buff them all. You gave 4 minions +1/+1 that’s a total of 8 stats for 1 mana. Anything beyond 4 stats is free value, so you can say you buffed them for free.
With “6/5 rush for 3 mana” I meant to say that you pay 3 mana the turn you summon it and not 6 mana. Almost always you have at least 1 mana to spare at the end of each turn unless you play perfectly in curve, so that cost doesn’t count because it was unused mana anyway.

You’re right but let’s suppose you have 5 mana, a Dancing Blades and a Dioltas in hand. You’ll always go for the best play so, if there’s a minion to kill with Blades, you’ll go for it and use the BBS the next turn, but if there’s no minion to kill then there’s no point in playing Blades so you’ll go for the BBS and Dioltas and save Blades for the next turn. No point in saving it.
Unlike the other BBSs, Kara’s doesn’t require any thinking. For example Faie’s BBS: before casting it, you’ll consider whether you want that 2 damage on the general or you want to save it for the next turn to pick off a minion with it. Same with the other generals except Vaath and Zirix. Kara’s however, doesn’t require you to think whether you want to save it for later or cast it immediately. You’ll always want to use it whenever it’s available. That’s what I meant by “brainless”: cards that require little to no thinking.


#7

I really think that they need to modify Kara’s ability. Not only is it too powerful, but it’s just boring the way it is, and leads to boring games. If they want to keep the general theme of the ability, I think they should change it so that it affects spells, artifacts, and minions in some way, while also slightly nerfing its creature buff. Perhaps make the creature buff +1/+0 or +0/+1, or random. I’d like to see the ability affect spells and artifacts as wells so that kara isn’t shoehorned into being an only-creature deck, but instead allows for more variety in deck building.


#8

What about something like: “Give a minion on you hand (your choice) +1/+1” instead of all minions? or “give a minion on your hand (random) +2/+2” this turn" i’m always hoping to see change (even if it’s a mistake it could help balance the game on the long run) so i’m not totally against that. that being said, i do think kara’s BBS it’s something very “vanar like” overall. (to prove that just see how many vanar cards are played in your mid range kara… usually, just the removal)

Anyway, tiger could be a problem, i myself have won many games with really big tigers on the past (i once won a game with an 9/8 tiger i had since my first hand and never used until the very last turn)


#9

I guess I’m in the minority. I play a non-standard Kara deck based around Unseven and Dying Wish minions. I end up putting some thought into how to best use the BBS.

“I could cast it now, but I only have one dying wish minion. Instead I’ll cast Cyro to get a Draugar Lord, replace and hopefully next turn I’ll be able to buff more minions!”

That sort of thing. I know there is the cheap neutrals with Opening Gambit version of Kara, which probably requires a bit less thought (and is probably better than my deck :stuck_out_tongue:)


#10

Just change tiger. Rush for a neutral is too boring a mechanic anyway.


#11

A lot of thought goes into Kara, especially if you’re not getting the right draws.
I’ve seen several of Duelysts S rank+ players making these posts about how they ran straight to S on a smerf with default cards and Kara, posting the decks and explaining it even, but when I took a crack at it I went 2/2 in the first 4 games.
Now sure, I certainly am by no means a great, or even good player some days, but if they can soar to S rank, and I can’t even move reliably through Silver without knowing the game?

Despite this, Kara can be broken, or useless.
Look at it like this:
For the cost of one you can potentially give a total of 6/6 to your hand.
That certainly sounds broken.
With that said, you have to pay cost for these minions so it’s not like you’re swarming with steroid enduced rage.
Plus, in that scenario, you have 0 spells.
Rush aside, these minions can be despelled before damage is done.
But then you get, "But I don’t want to HAVE to run despell."
You need despell in this game. Seriously xD
Removal at the very least.

So now let’s look at Saberspine directly.
As the game progresses you will cast spells, summon not super boosted minions and the like.
Damage will exchange between players, but your hand will gradually shrink, unless you run draw, which gives you less BBS targets.
So, if the enemy manages to despell your mildly boosted minions and control well enough, you drop Saberspine at say, 6/5 for 3 mana.
That’s 3 boosts, six turns of keeping just him in your hand instead of trying to manage what’s on board.
At this stage it’s late game unless Kara open handed the Saberspine.
Your opponent will generally by now have dropped a larg enough minion to distract Saberspine from going for face, so it can also be looked at as a 3 mana removal spell, which is far from unheard of, if it doesn’t feel the need to go for face.

If the rest of your hand didn’t look great you can get overwhelmed.
Do I think it’s fair when it happens to me?
Of course not, but in a certain light that’s what Kara is for.
But from a sheer numbers game Saberspine is not the problem.

The game as a whole is the issue.
It’s a 1 drop spell that on average provides three 1/1 boosts to unknown cards; potentially more making it broken, potentially less making it highly negligible.
Ultimately it could for a total of 3 uses provide say, two 3/3 boosts, two 1/1 boosts and some scattered mess, for only 3 total mana spent. So, that’s an uncertain total of, call it 10/10 for 3 mana. Iffy on the balanacing and numbers there, but you get my point.
If her BBS was to be reworked to say, give 2 random minions in hand 1/1, or to do the same thing but wear off after 2 turns, I feel it would be a great deal more balanced.

TLDR

The Spell is very good, situationally broken, but as a whole not inherently.
Suggested reworks right above this.
Amateur math and a handful of scenarios presented.
Stuff.


#12

you haven’t played yu-gi-oh right? :stuck_out_tongue:
Kara wasn’t a problem when Ziryx was rushing his bal… dervishes against our faces. Kara BBS is stuck on a playstyle and RIGHTNOW matches the conditions to be top; there is no way to have a strong Kara deck with less than 30 minions and if your minions can’t capitalize their effects in your turn they aren’t worth the buff (primus shieldmaster & crystal cloaker [this one for cryo] being the only exception). If they “balance” the BBS Kara will be as usefull as Ziryx.


#13

Kara bbs ability open the game for any minion to be used that is good thing.If I wake up today and say I want to play planar scout or Rook.The one general capable of making that happen is Kara.

I don’t have problem with Kara out valuing and control with super buff minions.I have problem with being out valued and out burst in the same deck.You can out control Kara and spend your time fighting for the board and winning then big Tigers pop out and you lose.


#14

IMO The issue with Tiger isn’t the out of hand burst, every class has access to that in their own rights so it’s all fair in love and war. But unlike other class’ this burst also requires an answer, while Abyssian is the only class that requires you to answer a minion that has immediate burst (Revenant) it at least doesn’t have the ability to go face twice unless it’s killing you. You can always count the BBS in this fast meta and say “As long as I stand here or have X amount of HP I don’t die to tigers” it’s something you can answer and will in most cases be at 4 HP unless you’re doing something wrong making a lot of cafrds answer it. But Tigers can go beyond that and be a lot harder to remove.

IMO Kara’s BBS design wise is a bit strong, yes. But making it +1/+0 instead would be much better, because health is more valuable then the damage so this way it keeps up with the Vanar faction’s aggressive design but also keeps things balanced.


#15

no yu gi-oh ^^ , in fact there is a lot of stuff in older format in MTG that kills out of nowhere but in magic there is a lot of ways to interact with them with things such as discard and counterspells.

In Duelyst such strong win con should not be a thing or we should be able to interact with them.

Once again I think the BBS of kara is fine the problem is rush minions in general


#16

Kara’s BBS is just too strong compared to the rest. It’ll be toned down, I’m assuming. Maybe +1/+0.


#17

Oh!, sorry, I switch to the thread mentality of “this BBS is OP” in you reply without realizing.


#18

“your minions can only receive this buff twice”, would “nerf” the super-buffed minions


#19

I think Kara’s BBS is OP and it should be can’t duplicate


#20

wow Your nickname is pretty much same with me o.O