Do you miss it?


#1

Hi, i just woke up with question for myself on my mouth, “do i miss 2 card draw?” And what do you think? How 2 card draw would affect meta today and maybe it was mistake by CPG to go for “hearthstone draw system”.


#2

Definitely not a mistake by CPG. Although at first after the change from 2 draws per turn to 1 draw, I had a little mourne, I actually prefer the 1-draw per turn system now.

Under the 2 card draw system, there would be little to no need of other card draw mechanics, such as Sojourner, L’Kian and Blaze Hound.

The 2 card draw also favours aggro decks or fast decks as those decks can recover their hand faster with 2 draws per turn. I guess nobody likes to play against aggro decks do we?

Meanwhile, slower decks such as control (if they are any viable in the current meta) may be punished by the 2 draws per turn - they risk having cards burned, as their hand is full of removals and high-costed cards and thus they can’t use their cards faster than they draw. This point is arguable though, as control might be able to run smaller minions since they have more innate card draws.

Wrapping it up, the 2-draws-per-turn system favours aggro, makes alternative card draw mechanics irrelevant, and may have negative impact on control decks, thus pushing the pace of game faster.

As the game goes faster, cool cards with interesting effects - which usually have heavy costs - like Zurael, Nimbus and others could be ignored when the enemy Kara drops her tiger and keep going face, or Faie tossing in her third Flameblood Warlock to lethal you before you get to play you slightly heavy threats. This makes the game unhealthy and monotone (remember how Face Hunter or Face Shaman ruled the ladder in Hearthstone?), and the 1-draw-per-turn system is here to slow the game down.


Slightly unrelated to the topic but…

I know this game draws a lot of resemblance from Hearthstone, and I often compare this game to Hearthstone. However, I don’t think classifying 1-draw-per-turn mechanics as “Hearthstone Draw System” is fair. Uno and a lot of other generic card games has the same draw-1-per-turn rule. When some cards or situations in Duelyst draw close resemblance to Hearthstone, it is perfectly fine to compare Duelyst with Hearthstone, but I myself would refrain from over-generalizing stuff from Duelyst as a reference in Hearthstone.


#3

when i said “hearthstone draw system” i was thinking about 1 draw per turn + discard 2 cards at start, before, if i remember we were able to discard every card of starting hand right? And overall thanks for complex answer :slight_smile:


#4

You can’t really say one is better than the other since they both lead to 2 completely different games.

What are the fundamental differences?

2 card draw is all about tempo and board presence and the ability to kill your opponent as fast as possible, it benefit aggro and combo decks.Turns often look like huge back and forth swing which was pretty fun to some people. 1 card draw is more value oriented, it benefit control and midrange deck, it brings the game closer to a regular card game where people grind value and can actually run out of resource.

You will hear some people say that the 1 card draw system made the game more random, which is actually false. If you remember well, with the old system you started with a 3 card hand and could replace any of those 3, this starting system is a lot more random than the one we have now. The only way the 2 card draw system make the game less random is when you are in top deck mode, but with all the card draw we have today those situations happens very rarely.

Why did it have such a bad impact when it first came out?

Basically every time you fundamentally change a game, you take the risk of loosing your current player base which so far were playing your game for what it was. Also back in the days BBS didn’t exist so the game felt a bit empty in terms of possibilities.

Was it a good decision?

I believe so, from what it was the game was appealing to some people but would had trouble to appeal to a larger audience of TCG players who are used to a more classic system. I think the board is good enough to make the game unique. Beside with 2 card draw system incorporating the BBS would have made the game very overwhelming especially for new player.

What do I personally prefer?

I prefer the 1 card draw system because it allow a wider diversity of play-style, I also like resource management and grind value.


#5

Good points but I’d have to disagree with some of them.

Your first point that 2 card draw favoured aggro is not really accurate when it comes to Duelyst. It may be true in a vacuum but it is not really true in execution. Worth noting that most of the metagames pre-1 card draw where some of the slowest in Duelyst history such as full Control Vetruvian/Magmar and Big Abyssian. When the 1 card draw hit changed they did such a big rebalance to both existing cards and future design that if anything aggro is MORE prevalent since the changes.

It is a sad fact of current Duelyst that answers are worse than threats. Do you have the answer to that ironcliffe or are you going to get diving bonded out of the game? Do you have the answer to Lantern Fox or is he going to get 3 cards of value out of his turn 1 drop? Do you have the answer to that early Kron or is the game over? The list goes on. Previously not only where answers/Heals much cheaper/more effective (Plasma Storm, Metamorphosis, Spirit Harvester, Star’s Fury, Tempest, Emerald Rejuvenator, Earth Sphere all spring to mind instantly) but your chances of drawing them where much higher.

Yes the aggro decks had more ‘gas’ to flood the board but when your 5 mana card obliterates their entire board the chances of stabilizing are actually higher. Also don’t forget that while you drew more cards your starting hand was also smaller. Right now early tempo decks can burst out early and try to build an overwhelming board advantage with their initial hand, but in the old rules even with draw 2 you where often tempered with how hard you could contest the board. (there would be no bloodtear alchemist/slo turn 1 spam like Flood Lyonar currently does, just as one example).

Let’s also examine how with cards like changed Spelljammer and Blaze Hound the decks that want to play 2 card draw mode often can anyways. Or how with the introduction of Hero Powers Aggro decks have a guarenteed mana sink and often build in reach as the game goes on in cases like Kara, Faie, Argeon, etc.

So yes in a vacuum less free card draw favors aggro. But with the way Duelyst has evolved as a whole I think the opposite has actually happened. The game is MORE about tempo than ever, at least at high ranks (diamond+ at minimum). With heal nowhere to be found and most mass removal nerfed into oblivion you can snowball the game harder than before. It’s why Falcius has buffed Vetruvian more than Nimbus. It’s why Faie has one of the strongest hero powers at the moment despite it usually just being ping enemy general face for 2 damage. It’s why with all her new tools Cassyva isn’t really that good at the moment.

I like that they changed to 1 card draw because it opens more design room. I don’t like the direction they went after that because I too like control decks and the current meta does not favor them at all.


#6

This is not completely true. Aggro was so prevalent towards the end of the 2 draw era because control cards were/became weaker, and a lot of the high cost minion just suck, like literally unplayable. The few strong one like archon or elder actually saw a fair amount of play.

If you did play around last October, control mag was the unquestionable number one deck on ladder because they had 4 mana plasma storm, old mana burn and the metamorphosis combo for clean board clear.

When aggro/tempo cards are strong, people play aggro/tempo. When control cards are strong, people play control.

What really encourages aggro and fast game is how ladder only rewards net wins per hour


#7

The intent of the change to 1 draw per turn, according to developers own words, is to make the game less predictable. Really, I’m not making this up.

The current draw system has a higher consistency in the first 3/4 turns comparing to the old system but the the consistency drops by a lot afterwards. You can go take a look at the calculations posted around the time when the change happened.

The funny part is, since most decks run more threats than answers, the increased early game consistency means the opponent will drop they strong openings more often.

It’s very clear that the developer is trying to push a ton of randomness into the game, which is not necessarily a bad thing. They have made their mind and has been taken actions long before we realize. I’ll just give a few examples.

  1. A ton of random card effects were added to the game through monthly new cards.

There were always cards with random effects from the beginning of the core set, and randomness was always part of the game. However, the ratio of the random cards was never as high as the monthly cards. It’s not surprising to see sometimes there are 3 out of 4 new cards have the word random on them.

  1. The switch from 2 draw to 1 draw.

This should be pretty straightforward. Developers want the games to be less consistent so the less skilled players have a chance against the more skilled ones. This is actually a very healthy thing as long as it’s not overdone like what’s happening in HS currently.

  1. They just indicated they want luck to be a big part in deciding s rank top 50.

The source is from a post on Reddit. personally I really don’t understand this. I’m okay with increasing the rng element from a game to game basis. But adding even more variance on top of that, at the highest level of play, is just bizarre.

Anyways with all the seemingly isolated decisions you can see a very clear path. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be the way to go, but it’s pretty interesting to think about where the game will go in the future.

To be fair the developer has also added features to increase consistency, namely the BBS, but that’s really about making sure the games ends fast since top decking has became a lot more often and they need high impact, not-draw-dependent moves to close out the game.


#8

Actually, no this is not the case. If you had read the whole reddit thread you would have come across this post here where they state that they do not want randomness to be a primary factor in your S-rank.

As for the title of the thread, yes, I still miss it.


#9

Cool. I’m glad if this is the case. I’m no where near top 50 but I really wish skill matters the most at the top.


#10

CPG stated once that one of the reasons behind the change was diversity and space desing for new cards, that it allowed more card pool. Honestly i think they accomplished that, and many cards we see around wouldnt be possible in older system. Not even many BBS would been.

As for me, while i got hooked by the game before the change, i never understood it as something bad, while on the contrary. Just because you mentioned it, one of the things i left HS for was the lack of action from blizzard, while implementing new stuff, totally stubborn about revisiting already existing things. And while i think not all additions or changes done by CPG are great, it at least show how they care for their game and how much attention they pay to it.

The only issue i think, is that CPG tends to make a big change and then “fix” it or balance it, before preparing for it and then changing: they switched to 1 draw when there almost wasnt any draw in the pool at all; some factions didnt even have any.

I dont RNG should go along with this subject, at least for cards abilities, but: though the 1 draw is less predictable than 2 (not necesarily bad, and yes, even CPG stated it), this game still has the replace mechanic in its core desing, which allows you to fish for cards and increasing your options. I was whatching some HS videos the other day and oh boy, thanks god we have it. Also, taking the same example: HS is still predictable AF and they have 1-draw-no-replace mechanic. So…


#11

Hi guys,

I put in like about 100 dollars into this game. But stopped playing since the change to draw mechanics. I came back to the game today to see if i could a way to enjoy it again. The answer was no. I can’t really explain why, but the draw mechanic change just killed the game for me.

Good day to you all.


#12