Duelyst Forums

Do we have an issue with Magmar?

#1

I know that people have been complaining about Magmar for a while, but I wonder whether there has been any structured attempt to discuss the current state of Magmar in the forums. I’m a Magmar main, so if I have any bias it is in favour of the faction, not against it.

After taking a small break from the game, I came back yesterday and I put together a winning streak of 10 wins playing Golem Magmar, moving from rank 12 to rank 8. I’m a relatively good player, consistently ending up in Diamond, but far from a top player. What I found surprising was how easy it was to just dominate games. I really thought that my opponents were not enjoying the game while playing against my deck. I don’t think I can have a similar win rate with any of the other factions.

I think the main offender as of now is Lavaslasher, but also Ragebinder is delicate, because it fills a notoriously weak slot for Magmar. I think that now Magmar have an almost perfect curve, which makes the faction both strong and easy to play. Are we comfortable in having a faction with both these? It really seems that Magmar can provide a better answer to anything.

Let’s discuss, waiting for the balance patch

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#2

Patch wen :cry:

Being serious: IMO, one of Magmar’s weaknesses before was that they had two choices really: (1) develop board or (2) remove your stuff. Early game, even though Natural Selection is super efficient, you could really expect maybe a NatSelect+Young Silithar or BBS at worst. Things like Elucidator, Tiger, and Makantor leave either really weak bodies or no bodies when used as removal. Usually you’d just be worried about dying to burst or the occasional Sunsteel Defender / Taygette (which for certain factions are easy to clear).

In comes Lavaslasher. Now the lizard-men no longer have to choose! Instead, you can have a better Dancing Blades with an (on average) bigger body. Add Ragebinder into the equation and you now have a faction with tons of burst, better answers to everything you play, and sticky + big minions.

Patch wen :sob:

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#3

I think there’s already a thread for discussing concerns with Vanar and Magmar.

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#4

I agree, midrange vaath seems almost embarrassing to play. I am magmar main and vanar second and this meta made me to create my first ever vetruvian deck today. After 11 seasons. I’m having great time :smiley:

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#5

Lavaslasher/Ragebinder may have put them over the top, but I’m still not quite comfortable with Thumping Wave. It gives even more out of hand burst while doubling as removal in a pinch. Aggro decks thus become more consistent which chokes out other deck types and inferior aggro decks.

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#6

I think TW is fine, it has been around for a while and it never pushed Magmar really to the top. It may see a slight damage reduction from 5 to 4, but any other nerf would kill the card.

@mrmana3: I recall a thread about Vanar, but not one about Magmar. If there is one, my bad!

#7

Taking 2 health off of Slasher certainly wouldn’t hurt, giving Magmar a decent five drop was a good thing but they overdid it a little. I mean he has an arguably higher power level than memekantor itself, that says a lot.

#8

there is one about them both.

about magmar in general, i climbed this season mostly playing kaleos, facing magmar was quite a bad experience, there is no convinient way of removing ragebinder as songhai, i’d really rather face sunsteel defender, it also heals and can be played for 2 mana (without flash reincarnation) it’s just gg if you need to remove it as songhai.

lavaslasher is quite painfull as well, it has reach, enough damage to kill most things and still stay a 4/4 - 4/6 body after that.

later on i played other factions including magmar and to my surprise they aren’t as impressive as i though, lyonar have tools to deal with them, their minions are strong enough to compete even without removal, vanar just spend 1-2 mana or enfeeble + skorn or whatever, abissians spread spamm all over the map and play shadowdancer and kite you indefinetely. it really doesn’t help to have a 4/8 if it has to kill 1/1s all day long and still can’t get to the real target. vetruvians are ones i haven’t played yet, nor fought against as magmar, not sure how that matchup goes.

overal it feels more songhai’s minions weakness and lack of removal that makes those feel so strong.
buffing something in songhai to help them deal with it would really help.
alternatively making ragebinder a 3/3 instead 3/4 and lavaslasher 4/7 instead 4/9 could work as well if they need nerfing.
it might actually be too soon to tell, whether nerfs are required. i’d rather see a songhai buff at this point (i have yet to see how vetruvians fare against those)

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#9

I do agree that Songhai might need a buff, they have been toned down too much. But I’m not sure Songhai are the only faction having troubles with Magmar so far. What about Vets and Abyssian?

I see that Lyonar can defeat Magmar, though it’s not obvious that they might not lose the battle due to the massive presence of rush minions.

#10

when i played magmar abissian had quite good win rate against me, in s rank. they seem to have tools to deal with magmar. i don’t play abissians myself so don’t really know.

like stated previously i haven’t played the matchup enough yet, maybe 1 or 2 games as magmar, i’m yet to play it as vet. i haven’t got to play them yet. it might be an issue for them, might also not be, they are quite strong in tempo plays…

worst case slight stats nerfs are sure to make them easy enough to handle for all the factions. i feel like people are jumping on the nerf train too fast before even trying to play around cards and checking the available options.
i guess having to use too much tech cards to just have a chance is bad as well, so some balance needs to be found of how strong those cards can be allowed to be or rather how much they are allowed to affect the opponent’s deck.

1 Like
#11

I’m biased, too - so I’m not shure if I can give you an half-decend opinion on that.

Let’s have the first sight just looking on the two questionable cards (Ragebinder, Lavaslasher) in a nutshell:

For Ragebinder I think CP did a good job filling the curve. With 3/4 it has a decent body while not being overpowered. So it can see play in Non-Golem Decks for the body while competing with neutral 3-Drops that might be better for their specialties.
The power of the card shines in Golem Decks where it’s really strong. But don’t forget that Bond is NOT an Opening Gambit - it’s conditional!

Lavaslasher is an overall better Blades for the same Mana. It can be Flashed out, hit and usually still has a body >= 3. It’s an overall amazing card.

That said: I’m not shure by myself if I want to see any of the two cards being nerfed or not. And I tend to say that I don’t want them to be nerfed for the following reasons - and they’re only half-rational, I know:

  • Almost all cards that got nerfed in the past are unplayable now. While I see the need in terms of the business model of the game I don’t want the 3 and 5 Mana slot of the faction being crap again.
  • Other factions also have their cards that are called OP (I wouldn’t say Ragebinder is OP, Lavaslasher might be on the edge) - they’re just higher on the Mana curve and despite that we get all the rage at the moment and not them. It’s my believe that we needed a card like Lavaslasher just being able to compete with other factions lategame by destroying their gameplan early. (Not talking about unconditional, boring, annoying wincons like Meltdown.)
  • We (all but 1 factions) need cards with big bodies and/or OGs/Bond Synergies because CP decided to design a faction that can do both: Having the best ramping and having overwhelming access to the cheapest and most effective removal in the game. So they limit the design space for 5 factions.

All in all:
I don’t see a big reason to talk about nerfing the second best faction (at the moment). CP should bring Vanar in a healthy status and then we may talk about Magmar. From my point of view balancing the game step by step and not all in one is the best way. Beginning at the very top.

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#12

Magmar is very popular right now because Lavalasher has a little to much health, and because they have a decent match up vs the number one deck Faei. They really are not a problem in general. They have pretty much always sat a little below the top decks but without a particularly bad match up making them reliable and popular but never over the top.

There is nothing wrong with Strong and Easy as long as it is balanced, and having a healthy curve is a good thing. Ragebinder is fine, its a solid three drop but on par with neutrals outside of dedicated golems. While strong, all of magmars removals are conditional making them relatively fair by providing counterplay. People like to whine about rush but as long as the minion has balanced stats its a perfectly fine mechanic that has counterplay with good positioning, provoke, and nightwatcher.

Also I think this is one of the better Metas we have had in a long time. Finaly a control meta, where face decks have fallen by the wayside. Way more fun. Yea Faie is a little over the top, but that is mostly meltdowns fault, and a combination of getting a bunch of really strong support cards at once in Mana Deathgrip and Circulus. Their removal kit is not a problem at all, and its important to have viable control decks, control is sort of the factions thing. If two of the three problem cards Deathgrip, Circulus, or Meltdown get adjusted Vanar will be quite healthy again. Yes still quite strong, which is a good thing, but more in line. If you attack their control kit they will go from good to bad, rather then healthy.

Although Faie keeps an otherwise potentially to strong card, Juggernaught, in check. If faie gets tuned down, Juggernaught may need to be addressed. Although I hope it is a small adjustment since its hard to make an 8 mana card viable.

#13

Maybe for you.
It feels 90% RNG now. You either draw the perfect counter or you don’t. Fae can clear your board like 3 turns in the row because why not? Trying mind games just doesn’t help, they always might just topdeck enfeeble and it’s gg… And that if they fail to ramp meltdown when you don’t have unconditional removal to deal with it.
I think i won only 1 game against double meltdown fae, by her getting bad procs on meltdown and me being able to draw the last card for decimus combo on last turn i could stall for…

Ragebinder is fine? What are those neutral 3 drops that compare to it? The 4/3 neutral golem sure feels weaker, it doesn’t​ have any abilities.
In most matchups it might be ok if their damage removal is exactly at 4 damage, like makantors and holly immolation. songhai with just 3 damage removal have harder time removing it than a sunsteel defender, which is a strong 4 drop.
Something needs to be done there, either songhai buff or it being nerfed. Not sure what exactly but it can’t stay thus way. Not on something that costs 2 mana without flash most of the time…

Lavaslasher is troublesome too, even lyonar struggle to deal with it effectively, it can just remove most stronger 4 drops like sunsteel and dioltas while still leaving a reasonable big body to work with, unlike dancing blades you can’t position around it. I guess some nerf to it’s hp wouldn’t hurt…

#14

I agreed meltdown is a huge problem. But that is not Faies fault. I also did advocate for some tuning, just not to their control kit. You do realize they have not gained any new control spells for quite awhile yet control Faie was bottom of the pack for like a year, despite that being what the faction was supposed to excel at?..We seem to actually be in agreement here and your just quick to pull out torches and pitch forks since I did not utterly condemn her.

As for Ragebinder: Well tiger obviously, then Souj for draw, Repulsor for control, blazehound for aggression, and prismatic or sarlac for the right decks. Or alternatively just skipping the three slot since its a pretty awkward number since two drops for player one, or double play with globe turn two/player two are usually better, followed by skipping to 4 mana where there is an abundance of things superior to it. There was an extreme lack of viable in faction three drops, and they have to be exceptionally good to beat out slots for two or four drops, and ragebinder hits that sweet spot just right.

And yea…I agreed lavalasher has to much health.

Also I will take the most miserable, RNG fest, stale meta, over hurp durp, face, SMORC, no brain metas any day…and this is far from that bad, a couple small tweaks and it will be my favorite meta since two draw.

Edit: Also, I have no sympathy for songhai but I am going to try to avoid ranting about them. If we get the couple small adjustments I recommend everyone should be pretty close to on par with each other.

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#15

And magmar aren’t SMORC now? it’s literally the only thing vaath can do and it’s most spammed champion now.

proper aggro / tempo atleast requites positioning and is rather easy to counter and you know exactly what to expect, there is nothing random in tempo decks. would take tempo aggro meta every day over this toxic control meta, every game is more toxic than the other, i’m still in top 50 but i wonder why haven’t i gave up on the game yet i literally get nothing other than frustration from playing it.

she gained strong minions and very strong unconditional ramp, one thing to have removal when you don’t have minions and an other is to have removal when you have some of the strongest minions in game, to add salt to injury they started playing things like dancing blades now, so even dispell doesn’t work and they can remove your minions even more conviniently…

that i agree with, currently it isn’t the case however.

#16

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