Duelyst Forums

Dioltas - needs a nerf?

#1

The stats are way too good on this minion. 5/3 for 4 is just 1/1 below hailstone golem in stats, but you’re playing this mainly for the dying wish effect, which is summoning a 0/10 with provoke that locks you in place until you can get rid of it. So if you count up the total stats then it becomes 5/13 for 4 which is disgustingly good. Compare this to Reaper of the Nine Moon - it costs 1 less mana in exchange for not having flying, but the dying wish effect is significantly better, because more often than not you’d rather want the 0/10 provoke than any random minion from your opponent’s deck.

In Lyonar it’s a staple, sure, but the problem is it seems to be a staple in every single control deck out there. No other dying wish minion requires a dispel or transform effect as much as this one. A 5/3 for 4 is very solid in stats (10 damage to your general), but it’s the 0/10 with provoke that is the key here that is a lot stronger than it looks. If it is left alone, it itself is a minion with 10 health and provoke, so if your opponent cannot remove it, then it locks them in place for 5 turns. If you are Argeon you can use your general power on it. If you are Vanar you can use mark of solitude on it, or razorback it for some extra damage. If you are Abyssian you can use deathfire crescendo on it, or shadow reflection. Any deck that has buffs will value Dioltas, because a 10 health minion that locks the opponent in place is very difficult to remove. The value that this minion brings is way too good for 4 mana, and if your opponent do silence or transform it, then that means they have less silence/transform for your other late game threats.

I think this card needs a nerf personally. I say make it so the tombstone no longer has provoke. Having provoke on a 0/10 minion that comes out of a well-stated 5/3 for 4 mana is way too much.

2 Likes
#2

That was addressed many times before, be original start a nerf thread about something like serpenti or some other op cards.
And to be honest I think Dioltas is ok. Powerfull, yes but ok.
Oh and it’s not a staple in every single control deck, and there are not many of those, but even in them it’s ok. I think you are playing agrro right? Have you ever tried control in Duelust? It’s damn hard and slowing games down is the main issue. Dioltas just helps with that.

3 Likes
#3

“oh look songhai was nerfed, lets search for more things to nerf or else i might get bored”

15 Likes
#4

On this week’s nerf thread…

No, Dioltas does not need a nerf. Compare it to something like Blistering Skorn, which can easily have the same potential amount of stats distributed across the board via. it’s effect. Compare it to something like Spelljammer, which has an 8 stat total (with the crucial 5 HP breakpoint) and has an insane effect. Compare it to something like Primus Shieldmaster, which has a 9 stat total with a Provoke and affects the board immediately.

Dioltas is strong, yes, but not every strong card needs to be nerfed. It’d also say due to the fact that it has a Dying Wish it’s not immediately impactful. The card appears better than most 4 drops because frankly, there’s barely any good Neutral 4 mana cards. If you start looking into faction 4 drops you can find cards that have more potential power (Four Winds Magi, Razorback, etc).

2 Likes
#5

First of all, hailstone golem isn’t a 6/4. And secondly, stat distribution plays a huge factor when it comes to how well statted minion is and despite Dioltas having only 2 stats less than the Hailstone Golem they’re distributed in a very different way so you comparing them like that makes no sense. Not to mention how Dioltas’ stat distribution works hand in hand with her effect.

Also, when it comes to minions that spawn other minions, very rarely you can just add their stats together and use that as an argument to why they’re too strong. Dioltas isn’t a 4 mana 5/13, just like Mehpyt isn’t a 5 mana 6/9. Again, because things like tempo, stat distribution and in Dioltas’ case, not having the guarantee to spawn a tombstone are a thing.

All in all, with those two relatively short sentences you’ve proven how you lack the sufficient game knowledge to ask for nerfs. For the future, I recommend consulting with people about the cards’ strength before asking for nerfs, or any kind of changes really. Luckily, plenty of people here are willing to help out :slight_smile:

TL;DR - No.

7 Likes
#6

I have a different opinion on the card. think the card is okay, but it just has too much synergy with Lyonar. For Vet, Abyssian, or even Vanar it is good far drawing games out/eating dispels. They have small buff cards that make it like a 3/10 or something and it makes the card strong.

Then there is Divine Bond. I think that some changes would be nice but it would be hard/impossible to weaken the interaction with Divine Bond without making it useless in other classes.

I have noticed that the card is just now getting back into “Meta Status” so it wouldn’t hurt to add in some more dispels or other techcards to deal with it to your decks. Magmar for example is very good at removing it and other classes have options as well.

I think the Provoke effect is a good idea on it, because a 0/10 minion without any effects can just be ignored. Removing this would take away its intended use and only make it useful when combined with buffs.

1 Like
#7

The tombstone could be mechaz0red and be impossible to target by both sides and that would remedy the lyonar DB issue .
A 5/13 would be 246 times better than dioltas because it would still hit for 5 after taking 3 damage instead of hitting for zero. That’s why you cannot just add stats together.

2 Likes
#8

I have a problem with its lyonar synergy.
I would rather see it spawn 2/5 or 1/7 than 0/10.

#9

alternatively you could tech for it; abyssian, vanar, and neutral all have options that kill it instantly (outside of generic removal), and magmar’s options to remove it are standard in most decks (I.e. its standard removal).

If you’re having trouble with Tombstone then your deck has a weakness in being able to dish out damage quickly. This is a flaw and inherent to all decks, however different they may be; if this particularly is a problem for the decks you play then you tech for it. It doesn’t need to be nerfed.

2 Likes
#10

@marmara

I don’t think Dioltas needs a nerf, and I’ve said as much in another thread on the topic. But to be fair, I typically play with it in my current Abyssian deck, as it’s become a pretty critical card for my Dying Wish-centric play style. So I’m going to talk about why it works for me as much as why I think it’s fine.

Firstly, it’s an obvious threat when it comes into play. It’s almost always a dispel magnet. So much so that whenever possible I try to save a Consuming Rebirth to sack it myself. This way I get the Tombstone into play to help protect my general as fast as possible.

Yes I do use Deathfire Crescendo on it often. Not every game, but both the basic 5/3 frame and the 0/10 Tombstone are good candidates for the card at times. Though to be fair, i’m just as likely to put it on a Spelljammer, or an Aethermaster, or a Vorpal Reaver…or a Mini Jaxi, or even a Wraithling, etc. Deathfire Crescendo has a lot of flexibility, so it’s more about your situation and positioning. Sometimes it’s a winning strategy to pump the Tombstone as it can help with board control and pressuring the opponent, but Deathfire is a fast, powerful, and hard to pull off card. It’s go big or go home usually if you want to implement it successfully.

One thing I’ll say is maybe Dioltas should be a Legendary. I love the cards mechanic, as it’s one of the few that synergizes well with Consuming Rebirth in the game (there’s literally maybe two other cards. I wouldn’t change anything about it in terms of stats or abilites, but if it was more expensive in terms of spirit, maybe you would see a bit less of it on the board. As an Epic card it’s not cheap to save up for three, but I wish i had done so in my first month s a player, as the deck I currently have really suits my play style.

However at 5/3 for 4, it’s not that tough, more of a Glass Cannon, having the proc to summon the Tombstone means people try to avoid it usually rather than attack. Or they set things up to either dispel, or beat the Tombstone up in a turn, two tops. While it’s annoying, very rarely does it cause too many problems by itself for my opponents at rank 5 Diamond level. I’ve never made it to S-Rank, but I imagine the same thing goes the further up the good chain you get.

You have to ask yourself why you’re lacking ways to at least out-damage one. Are you only relying on short burst of damage (like a cheaper Spellhai kind of deck)?

But yes, much like Unseven (which is underrated), Dioltas is meant to force people to make choices with rationing their Dispels. It’s a great card because it’s always a hard choice for the opponent. Then again, it’s not cheap in term of Spirit cost, and if you box off the General the Tombstone can’t spawn to begin with.

However Dioltas does not work in decks that typically need to be faster most of the time. You need to run other cards in combination with it to get the most out of it, and most decks have more than enough removal to deal with it. Songhai also has creatures with Backstab, and a lot of ways to pump ranged minions to kill it, even without the direct removal or dispel the other factions have.

#11

It’s not easy to deal 10 instant damage after dealing with a former 5/3 threat. If you need a rare tech card to deal with something then it isn’t balanced.

Dioltas is good in most factions, but in Lyonar it gets that much extra synergy. You never know if they have divine bond which greatly reduces your possibilities (you need to avoid it, like you avoid Immolation), it’s also brilliant with bloodborn. Lyonar has a lot of board control, cards like Holy Immolation keep your minions off the board while keeping Tombstone at full health so it is a constant massive threat. Losing 40% of your health a Divine Bond is a huge deal.

I didn’t say it was overpowered, but it was definitely a game changer in my games. It’s a much bigger problem in Gauntlet where players can’t respond to it and it keeps growing. I don’t like that one Tombstone has the potential to give so much value, that’s why i said I would like to see it gain attack instead of health, so its not as extreme in Lyonar.

Lyonar seems to be on top of the meta now, while I would love to get refunds for my 9 Holy Immolations, a slight tweak for Tombstone would also be nice in my opinion.

#12

Good question is whether Dioltas is the problem or Divine Bond is the problem. I have a couple of thoughts about this :wink: If you want a hint, Dioltas is a good card, but far from being over-powered.

#13

I still vote for making the Tombstone a structure that spawns where Dioltas dies. Makes more sense and stops Lyonar from using it as a “free” Ironcliffe Guardian.

2 Likes
#14

@eternamemoria

I disagree with making it a structure, that’s pretty worthless.

It spawns randomly near the General, and provides no tactical advantage more than half the time. It wouldn’t be worth playing.

I think if Dioltas were Legendary, people wouldn’t complain about it half as much. (*edited to satiate trolls with nothing better to do than be snide.)

Honestly Divine Bond works a bit better with Ironcliff Guardian, a 13/10 with Provoke for 7, who doesn’t have to die to create the combo.

Remember Dioltas has to die, and you need to set things up tactically for that death to be to your advantage since i’s not always cut and dry the best thing for it die at the wrong time due to the random summon.

1 Like
#15

Awkward.

2 Likes
#16

Divine Bond does cost 3.

1 Like
#17

Hate to say it this way, but this shows exactly how much you know about the topic.

4 Likes
#21

I don’t know why they buffed it to 3 health ages ago.

#22

@jernat @bublublub

I edited my post. I misread the casting cost when I went to check on it (I don’t main Lyonar). I’ll ask you to keep seemingly snide comments to yourself as I have put a lot of time into learning about this game’s mechanics, and I was trying to convey a thought on topic.

To err is human, to be as ass is kind of insufferable. I’m not saying you mean any harm, but it’s certainly not warranted Bub.

EDIT, DIOLTAS DOES NOT NEED A NERF:

As for Dioltas, and staying on topic, I stand by saying the card is fair and shouldn’t be changed. See my previous post on the subject.

EDIT, AS FOR LYONAR:

As for Lyonar, there’s a couple S-Rank decks today that have been posted on this forum for making it to S this month. Neither of them even have Dioltas in their composition.

What does that tell you? It’s a good card, but it’s not needed to get to S-Rank. Meaning, that while it’s definitely a strong card for what it is, even with Lyonar, which has a lot of synergy with it, it’s not something you see all the time, and it’s certainly not dominating the meta.

#23

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