oh I also nominate bangle for songhai. Having hit
top 20 get on my level, noobs S with artifacthai many, many, many times, this card is too big an enabler, especially since MoS and flicker / cyclone +saberspine exist.
oh I also nominate bangle for songhai. Having hit
Strategoes already has been nerfed and has had very little presence since.
While I agree with you, I do not think it is ban worthy. But it could certainly be put on a watch list for if it starts to do well after other bans.
Yea I could get behind Fault+Rae going and Kha staying. I just actually like Fault cus it’s a neat card with counter play. But that would do the trick. Likely a desicion to be based on voting. I will as Fault to the vote list. At least we all seem to agree 2/3 should go.
Wanderer needs to go. Yes Ramp Wanderer is the worst of its offenses and banning Ramp just for Wanderer would help. But Wanderer needs to go for the meta to change and be enjoyable.
The songhai changes likely need to go to vote, but at least we all agree 2/3 need to go.
Abyss: Abyss has been garbage tied for some time. Let’s not kick a dog while it’s down, and also I think most folks will disagree about anything other then Xor. Again Wanderer needs to go period for the meta to breath, but yea no darkfire/Wanderer at the bare minimum.
@owlbeastmd I will add bangle to the vote list as well. It’s a pretty gross card but I did not want to put it up just due to my bias because it has not really had any meta
This is a really cool idea but i really dont know how it could work (not all players are in the forums and even then you can force anybody to not play banned cards)
But this would be my suggestion.
Considering its a ban list and not just a nerf, i would ban the least amount of cards possible, cards that are truly meta shaping right now.
This guy is definatley the card that identifies todays meta. Yes its not the most unfair card of the world but its a fact that it promotes both really powerfull swings and unlimited value. So i would definately ban it
Egg morph/wild inceptor/morin khur with Ragnora.
Here i agree with deathsadvocate, the ability to give pseudo-rush to stuff like ripper (and raptyr) is way too good and banning those two card would put Eggnora to a fine powerlevel.
Its a close choice between fault and kha but i would say fault, cause i really dislike the unlimited value that it generates so early and its because of this that rae and kha are so toxic.
This is a more personal preference but i believe this guy should be heavily nerfed/reworked/banned. Vetruvian is very well capable of strong tempo plays even without considering this guy and boa is already the strong removal that the faction needs. This card push all of this over the limit making almost all midrange decks an auto win for vet. I would definately ban it.
Songhai, lyonar, abyssian, vanar
I dont think those faction has any meta warping cards that deserve a ban. Im not saying that they havent problematic cards but that there is a different between meta defining cards and strong cards. And imho in a ban list only the first group ahould be included.
Sorry I’m kinda lazy to read through all the topic. Before I start arguing on the ban list, can you quote how exactly you’re going to punish those who don’t follow it?
I love how this thread is basically the reincarnation of DeathsAdvocates Fan Made Balance Patch
Basically you get banned from a tournament, and your name won’t appear on the monthly top fifty lists. Enforcing the top fifty is a combination of an honor system, and or people reporting you. Folks could also just opt in and out. It would basically be a voluntary tournament run on the ladder, and if we are lucky it will spread and most folks will get on board.
The idea being if the ban list gets recognized, people will follow it, the more people that follow it, the more the ladder and the game its self changes. And generally folks that care about competitive play will acknowledge meanwhile the more casual folks that do not want to bother with it wont really be effected.
If we get the whole Duelyst Central crew back together and working on it, having a pretty well recognized group of fellows organizing and voting on it just like we did with the power rankings, it has a pretty decent chance of kicking off and having a real positive effect on the game.
Personally, I would ban Rae over Kha. We’ve seen before in Duelyst how powerful 0 cost minions are and I think Rae is more of a problem than Kha, due to it allowing players to grab mana tiles for free and being able to summon dervishes the same turn that Fault comes down at 6 mana.
I would also ban Flash and Darkfire in Wanderer decks, so that Wanderer is less likely to be ramped out ahead of its mana cost, but still could be done through other options like Celebrant or Kujata. While I don’t think Gambler needs to be on the list because most people don’t play it and would never consider playing it. Plus if we want to go by
then removing a card such as Gambler, that rarely sees play at the best of times, would help shorten the list as people shouldn’t go overboard with banning too much at the start.
Like plasma and rebuke both have counterplay but you can,t play around both at the same time?
I will remove Gambler. As long as Fault exists Kha can not. I still think Kha is the worst of the trio but if Fault leaves instead that also works. I’m not a fan of it, but another good issue for voting. I do not really care one way or the other about Rae.
@terrarius You are really derailing things here. But yea, you actually can play around both of those at the same time by not over extending and or picking a good array of minions in the deck building phase, aka 4/5s make magmar roll over and die. On top of reactive cards don’t tend to be an issue. But this is neither here nor there, we each have our biases, but those are not relevant to the discussion. And its a pretty dick move to just attack someone over old unrelated info when they are trying to make a real positive difference.
I think it is relevant to put the goals of someone into perspective.
With that same logic you should also ban any AoE hard removal (read - Circle of Defecation, pando DSS and Purple Paragon). The card is very slow and easy to play around. Not a problem by any means.
hm. Lava lance not banned? Pretty strange, it’s one of those “too fckn efficient for their mana” Magmar cards…
I have no idea what the “power rankings” are and how they’re different from S-rank top 50. But the whole idea of checking replays and manually reporting seems like too much trouble for something that basically has no effect on player’s ability to play the game.
Things like Wanderer, Khault, Mantra already became a subject to selfregulation as I see much less of them now. Xor & Strategos are pretty much the Silver thing and I barely see them even in Gold. While I sympathize your effort, I don’t think it’s really necessary.
Another thing is general player disagreement. I already saw someone saying how they are going to intentionally break this rule if it becomes a thing. You and me strongly disagree on state of Magmar and their tools. It would be really hard to achieve any agreement on things like this.
Finally, game is frustrating by design, so…
As for the bans, my opinion is that instead of banning individual cards, you should be banning combos. Specifically Ripper+GFort, Kha+Fault, Mantra+Abju, Bangle+MOS/Cyclone, so on.
Again I agree with owlbeast: Xor and Necrotic should get the axe.
In addition I’d add Aphotic Drain as it gives too much tempo and sustain to the Trial Abyss
But you can’t play Trial Abyss without Xor’Xuul anyway.
I don’t have time to review the specifics at the moment, but I would like to ask why you only straight-up ban cards. Can’t some cards be limited or semi-limited, as in 1 or 2 copies are allowed? I’d prefer Spear being a limited card instead of a completely banned one, for instance.
Oops I wrote the sentence in the wrong way. I’ll fix it now, thanks!
@halcyon98: Yeah like I proposed: some cards could just be limited to 1 or 2 copies per deck.
This could be applied to those cases where a card is slightly overpowered.
Cards that could use this type of limitation could be Sandswhirl Reader, Lava Lance, or Lucent Beam.
My new favourite card.
There is absolutely no way Necrotic Sphere is stronger than all the other aoe spells such as Decimate or Aperion’s claim.
Xor is currently weak with tons of counters - dispel, transform, or just plain aggro. We should only worry about Xor and aphotic only if someone finds a strong deck that focuses on Xor.
@zerounderscoreou Again it would require very little work. Basicly at the start of the month you say, “Hey I want to try for the top 50 I will abide by the rules.” Then generally all of the other top 50 folk tend to run into each other, and if they notice someone cheating they can say something, replay can be checked if needed, and then they do not get to be on the top 50. Because the top 50 is community published now if you want to be on it you have to play ball, and I think most people would just abide by the honor system anyways, meaning we would very rarely need to even check.
All of these are still a plague towards the top of the ladder/tournaments that have sucked any enjoyment I have from laddering, and have caused a lot of grumpy attitudes for tournaments, of which Rhacker already talked about imposing a ban list.
So yea player disagreement is a thing, that’s why I am trying to get a committee of the most recognized folks around. We will gather a community generated list of cards to vote on, and then we will vote on which/how many to ban. Which is done by each person placing their priority of the ban of a card from #1 to #x and then we take the average of all the people on the committee and use that to make the decision.
The game does not have to be frustrating, it does not need to die, but with out content or a patch, either we have to do something, or that’s whats going to happen. I do think it is really necessary as we are hemoraging players. I can not even bring my self to touch the ladder right now, and I have been S rank for many many years. Something needs to be done and this is the best idea I have, and the only one I can think of that can actualy effect the game its self rather then just tournaments.
As for the:
This would A. Likely be the minority of people, B. Mostly be casual folks that are not contending for the top 50 or tournaments anyways, and C. yea not everyone will be on board, but its a movement and the larger it grows the more of a positive effect it can have on the game, and the more it grows the more people will pay attention.
Yea banning specific combos is an option. I already added a couple things like that such as If you play Rag or Shidai. And if that’s the direction people want it to go/voting works out that way its certainly an option.
Regarding suggested bans.
- Grimes is a meme, no reason to ban.
- I don’t see Crescent Spear as a problematic card. It’s strong, sure, but not toxic. To replace it I would have to craft 8G8ts (2.7k spirit, BTW), which calls for a different type of spell burn, and most likely I’ll end up playing Mantra, which is toxic, but not on the ban list.
- Kha is not a problem, Ex. Sand is.
- If you consider Abju to be a problem, you should ban most of ramp/discount (MDG, Wisps, Manaforger, Mana Vortex, etc).
- Ban Rebuke (and probably Pony), Lava Lance and all Mag buildings.
I support banning Wanderer, Decimus, Vitriol, Lucent Beam.