DeathsAdvocates Fan Made Balance Patch


Very well put.

I will also add that artifact decks are absolute game-breakers to face from a budget perspective unless you are running dedicated aggro. Nerf to 6 for NOSE was necessary for this reason, as it has little counterplay on the lower rungs of ladder.


i stopped reading when nerfing wanderer was the first thing on your list. whining about wanderer is a trend that is evidence of nothing but that fact that a significant amount of the population of any online game need a scapegoat for their feelings of aggravation resulting from losing.
when it was whining about something being “uninteractive” that argument almost seemed legitimate but quickly reveals itself as the scapegoat it always has been when you ask the whiner (not you specifically DA) if they want all out of hand damage removed from the game or where exactly they draw the line on what is an acceptable level of “uninteractivity” and find them unable to answer because they put no thought into it before they decided to start repeating the buzzword. now the dominant deck in the meta is wanderer (ragnora), a deck that is focussed on board control, the indiputable definition of interactivity and yet it’s currently the most cited card in the game in need of a nerf.
there is no conclusion to reach other than that the most commonly voiced complaint in this game if not all online games at any given time will be a disingenuous one latched onto by players who find it too hard to simply admit that they’re salty because they’re losing.
“if only X was changed about the game i’d enjoy it so much more”. no, you’d just find the next card or archetype on the list to blame for why you’re not enjoying the game which has been demonstrated true again and again. (again not you specifically DA).
if you started with a rework suggestion for ragnora’s bbs (and possibly reva’s as well) which is clearly the reason wanderer is so dominant in the meta you might have had a post worth reading and discussing. as it is it just looks like you’re feeding the trolls.


You should be more fair. Wanderer is mostly in the list because of inherent rise of RNG dependance. Not because he’s oppressive, but because it’s RNG, and DA seems to hate RNG.

Premature judgement is the quality that is not suitable to an experienced and respected player.


i usually won against NOSE if i was able to drop a primus shieldmaster on them after they silhouette tracered to the wall. if they spent their next turn playing a 5 mana 3/3 and the turn after dealing with the provoke before they could equip more artifacts and fly away it was usually enough to set up lethal.


Honestly why not both? Even outside of Magmar Wanderer manages to be annoying and generally bad (not weak, poorly crafted) in how it transforms all the factions in the rough same flavor of semineutral-tempo and Ripper IS an annoying little freak even when decoupled from the free buff. It is a disgrace to the idea of an ‘omnineutral’ card after we were introduced to concepts such as Reliquarian.


wanderer is responsible for a larger variety of cards seeing play on ladder and you somehow want to twist that into a negative because it includes too many neutrals?


That’s why I played siphon in my version :slight_smile:


It still is a negative when they configure as “the closest thing to my usual 3-of autoincludes i can’t auto3 anymore”. I’d adore to see later a proper list of truly unique card picks that Wanderer ‘supported’ and muse on where to fit them, or other ways to fit him for them.


Before I continue let me open with I would absolutely love to hear ways you think Sajj could be made more healthy and less highrollly. I do indeed want their to be equal treatment, but sorry I am adamant in the ways I am trying to adjust songhai. On a related note I am fine with Nose at six as I think it hardly effected the deck anyways, I will go ahead and just revert the nerf.

Sorry but bangle is a problem regardless, the fact that you can go from zero to dead with two cards and your positioning can be made irrelevant in many ways is just to much. It enables way to many crazy highroll things for far to little.

Nose is certainly pushing what is fair, but the trial completion its self has lots of counterplay, and then they have to spend a turn playing nose, and to do any kind of high damage requires upwards of four cards and having completed their trial, meanwhile at every step in the game you have chances to deal with their artifacts to keep them from going to far. They don’t have burn to supplement things, and they require more set up giving you time to react, it is just a world of class different from current versions of Artifact Hai. But after I tone down their burn a touch, give them insane control, and make bangle give almost nose levels of mobility they start to look similar and that was my goal.

Geo is one of the worst offenders in Songhai, in vanar its fine cus that’s it, when songhai can be a better faie AND still have other sources that is not. Now if it was just Geo/Pf and maybe some puzzle peice burn that could work. But you keep saying Geo lets you play a control deck, fireballs are insane for control, old geo is nothing but 8gates problem fuel. Excess burn, particularly gates/mantra does not have counterplay. Slow chip burn in moderation, or when it has positional elements does makes healing valid counterplay and that’s what I am trying to push them towards. Magesworn does not work for most decks and is also to easy for songhai to deal with, its far to narrow and inconsistent to be called counterplay.

Without shidai creating spells, abjucator, or Rokdopa I think Mantra has actually been nudged into a generally fair but strong lategame Aymara esque levels of a sustain/damage tool. But as long as 8gates exists I think they still have to much face burn, but I am trying not to strip them of their identity, just trying to make them fair.

I think I am being consistent, I am trying to make what dedicated burn or artifacts looks like between Sajj/Faie/Songhai be similar to each other, with songhai still having the ability to specialize a touch more then the others.

@owlbeastmd Ahem, I am an abyss main thank you very much. I also have played enough of Spellhai and Wanderer to understand them, and it only reinforced my belief that they are issues. But I think shifting burn more to control, and changeing bangle should nudge these to healthy levels. I also have thousands of games with nearly every archetype imaginable, songhai being the only exception.

And on this note people, I have a few very clear goals with songhai that I think all can understand. Guys if I am doing a poor job at it please make some other suggestions rather then trying to defend the problems suggest other ways to make them more healthy!!! Songhai is my least played faction, and this whole thing is a massive undertaking that I want help on!

Well I pretty firmly disagree about you thinking those are interactive in anyway. Applying pressure to prevent dying as quick is not interactive in my book. Interactive tends to do with positioning, using the board, and having meaningful ways to stop what your opponent is doing.

If you dislike my suggestions, please provide alternatives. We can start with bangle. Rather then simply extra movement, what kind of cost/amount of moves would be good without the celerity? @alplod I am thinking down to one mana, but can move twice. Less mobility then three, but splitting up your movement for a negligible cost should be just about right. I will make that change for now.

@zanestheargent I like the idea of improving mech support a lot more then going back to mechazor its self being sort of a highroll. I targeted mech himself because it was an easy quick and dirty change rather then having to change a whole bunch of cards to make it work. I think we will need more discussion on how to go about this, but if we all can settle on how to improve its support I will make the change.


That’s just Faie way of control deck. Removal is not control. Slow win con is control. And Geo is a slow wincon.

Yeah, you want it to be a different faction overall.

My opinion is there’s no reason to fix what is not broken. I can’t provide any help in killing everything I love, dramatically speaking. It’s you who considers them unhealthy, and while you will find some support in community regarding solo decks, I’ve never seen anyone but you so unsatisfied with teleportation.

As for me, I can’t provide any help, nor will you find any support of Songhai remastering in me. Sorry.

As our opinions on this point differ so much, I still hope we will be friends :slight_smile:


I’m not sure if your first suggestion is possible because the UI cannot target cards in your hand. Your solution to this issue seems awkward because it will make Abjudicator too similar to Manaforger.

It’s elegant in moderation, but not in excess. It seems appropriate on cards like White Widow and Vitriol, because they will be able to use their positioning as an offensive strategy, but on cards like Horror Buster it’s clunky because a Dying Wish effect is often enemy-reliant and not as under your control.

I would lower Sunriser’s ping to 1, buff Lightchaser and Excelsious, and rework Lucent Beam into a late-game removal card that involves healing.


Well hopefully UI is not to difficult to change. But yea I will replace my “next spell” with your “highest spell” suggestion incase UI proves to be an issue.

I fear sunriser doing one damage would be two weak. I thought my rework to beam accomplished shifting it in that direction decently?

The popular complaint I have been hearing about Healnar is Sunrise Cleric/Tiles providing far to many sources of heal procs. Something I do not inherently have an issue with as if Sunriser cant multi proc, Vit is not random, and Beam cant go face in theory it should not be an issue.

I am all ears on ways to improve Chaser/Excelsious though.


I pretty much agree with alplod on trying to help you with this. Songhai needs changes and maybe pedaling off a little on burn/burst, though not gutting it completely, and putting more focus on midrange would be really nice, but we have very different opinions on how to do this such as nerfing magmar’s board control tools so other faction’s board decks can breath.

In addition, making Zendo’s effect an opening gambit is just horrible. The card would have to cost 5 mana for that to be near playable and even then you are destroying midrange songhai’s only endgame which is still a sucky endgame. At that point, you might as well just play aggro and win off excessive chip damage if there is no end game because it would be the same thing but more efficient.


But two damage is too strong, so it’s quite the dilemma. I do think your change to Gold Vitriol would partially address this issue, as it would discourage Zir’an to squat on a single tile instead of actively engaging with the enemy. Looking at this perspective your change to Sunriser does make sense, but it’s also an issue where it takes away from Sunriser’s potential as a late-game minion. The more mana a player has, the stronger Sunriser gets, and that’s why the card is so useful. I still want Sunriser to have this characteristic, even if it means nerfing her hard.


The stats are terrifying and not only do you get him to force your opponent to attack him right away, but you can also open their back immediately to get in there and do work this turn. I see him as stronger then before just not as frustrating. If I missed the mark, or you have a better idea of how to rework him without the skiping your opponents turns aspect let me know. I would also very much like his cost to be in line with other Grandmasters, but ultimately if that’s to constricting it could go, I really want him to be Songhais lategame bomb.

I am all ears to hearing your thoughts on ways to change things. As long as they end up with far less unconditional face burn, limited highroll, and positioning mattering I would love insight that is better then my own.

Hum yea she is just a problematic design with their current kit. I don’t want to go after their consistent heal sources or faction staples as it took forever to get those and that’s what finally made healnar good. Its just gone to far.

However I think healnar has no business doing burst to face, they should be winning by attrition, and thus why I chose to change her the way that I did. If she were to keep her multiproc form the damage to generals would need to go.


Keeps the mana burn thing you want going, but limits it by forcing it to manifest through attacks. The only way to sustain her flame is to keep feeding her the heals that could be targeted at you or other minions.


Oh god what have you done…the mobility and the ability to damage and heal a unit repeatedly in the same turn is terrifying, on top of abuse with things like the Invincible spell. There is a reason Ziran runs stuff like skorn, tempest, and likes to take damage early on.


This is my change. Still powerful, but now you can’t abuse it with Hallowed Ground tiles. Of course, it’s still undeniably a huge nerf, so other Healyonar cards better get buffed in exchange or the archetype will die.


Great things. Terrible, yes, but great.


Interesting, accomplishes your nerf of often making her only deal one damage, but with clever play could keep her original power. I like it, I will add it as an alternative to my suggestion.