DeathsAdvocates Fan Made Balance Patch


#61

Minionmancy for Wanderer, imo is dumb. If one is to push into neutrality without making it stupid, i can at best hope for something closer to Reliquarian, where every faction gets something that doesn’t homogenize 'em into a shapeless blob.

Trial proposal for you guys while i crack my head here on my own version for this answer: Cast your BBS 6 times.


#62

Oh no, you are one of them!!!


#63

Always happy to hear disagreements, as long as they are not rude and or contrary just to be contrary. Even if we end up just agreeing to disagree often times at least one of us will see something new. Plus while I have a few core ideals that I stick to I am perfectly open to making changes.

Answer or die tends to be fine due to the excess of answers. Plus many of these have positional counterplay which is ideal. Polarizing means certain match ups are completely decided by the decks themselves rather then skill and or positioning. As long as you can outplay your opponent, and matchups are not to polarized, power is not an issue, particularly because by design duelyst is all about if everything is over powered nothing is.

The guy who liked RNG and frustration is long gone. This can absolutly change now.

Conjuers high varience is the problem, not it’s power. It should be powerful, it should just be consistent. I don’t want it nerfed, I just don’t want it to have RNG.


#64

See, this is the flaw in your design imo. Answer-or-die encourages a red queen between removal and minion to the point where minions transcend removal (trials) while possible counters are forced out of the meta due to the removal generated from the arms race. End result is a proliferation of the very burn decks you hate so much, as they are the few decks which can edge all archetypes with skillful play.


#66

I’m confused by many of your card choices. For example, though I’m Aby main, I don’t see a big reason for the most changes you suggested.
Of course, I could go through it in detail and basically redo most of your balancing, but do you really want that?
 
A couple of ideas I’d like to offer, though:

  • Mantra: instead of changing all the other spells, make it 4 mana, steal health equal to number of spells cast this turn (no doubling) or steal health equal to half spell damage dealt this turn;
  • Sunriser, Vitrol, Flamewreath, White Widow - ping damage lowered to 1;
  • Unfathomable Rite - 4 mana, draw 4 cards from your opponent’s deck.
     

I came to the same conclusion when they introduced Sentinels, and later confirmed with Build and Trial. I find it ridiculous how they introduced so much Dispel they had to specifically rule it out for new mechanics to work. If you want to talk about how Duelyst got its design space limited, this is what you should be talking about, not lack of rotations or similar nonsense.


#67

I would disagree with you lowering the pings of sunriser and wreath. With vitriol, it makes sense because 2 damage for every heal for 2 mana is very strong. However, nerfing riser to only have 1 damage makes it much weaker for 4 mana. If I were to nerf the card, I would just keep the 2 damage and make it a 3/3 or deal 1 damage but become a 3 mana 2/4.

For Flamewreath, making it only deal 1 damage is horrible, no one would play it because you have to spend so many precious resources just to get 1 damage ping. I hesitate even to make it 3 mana for 1 damage ping as you are still spending MDS and juxs for 1 damage ping. The best nerf I can suggest is making 5 mana, deal 2 damage and make the stats 3/5 or 4/5 (to prevent IF abuse).


#68

I am open to better changes that will make Ziran no longer a bursty burn deck, this was just my quick and dirty changes that wouldent make her weak.

@zerounderscoreou Flamewreath is a staple for Kal, needs no change. I targeted teleports because I don’t want songhai to ignore the board. That is my problem with them, not power. Currently I am trying to overshoot and make Songhai strong in trade for making them interactive. While I hate Mantra/Gates what I hate more is a deck that is nothing but burn, my changes to Songhai make it very hard to be pure burn. They can and should be powerful, but they should not be able to kill you without counterplay/conditions.

I am still against nerfs in general, RNG is my target. We want strong cards, we just want cards with counterplay.


#69

I responded to the guy above me, zerounderscoreou.


#70

I understand your attempts to eliminate RNG as much as possible, but I don’t think we should purge all forms of RNG as if it’s the plague or something. I feel like it would be a chore to play a game when everything becomes predictable. I would even argue Duelyst is already consistent enough, with a 5-card starting hand with 2 mulligans and the replacing mechanic. RNG is actually a reason why games are engaging; Hearthstone is based on the same philosophy, albeit it was taken too far.

Before I start rambling off, I do like your changes to Jaxi, Z0r, Lodestar, White Widow, Grimes, Vitriol, and Chrysalis Burst. These changes do not change the card entirely, and still preserves the flavor of the card. Other examples I do not like as much.

First, I think your change to Battle Pets is pretty overcomplicated. The RNG is Battle Pets is inconsistent, but it is an intuitive mechanic. Their randomness is also what makes them unique, and I wouldn’t be so fast to dilute it. An alternative solution is to give Battle Pets unique keywords that make them prioritize a certain target, such as the enemy General or the enemy with the highest Attack.

Your change to Abjudicator feels bad because it will eliminate any reason to play it over Manaforger. I suppose an Opening Gambit is a stronger effect than a passive one, but in terms of spell-based utility, Manaforger will be superior. My solution would be making it lower the cost of a spell in your hand with the highest cost by 1.

Making Bloodsworn Gambler cost 9 may solve its inherent problems, but it just doesn’t feel correct in terms of artistic cohesion. Cards like Worldcore Golem and Grandmaster Kraigon are 9 mana, and it makes sense because they are earth-shattering behemoths. I know balance is important, but I feel like it’s not worth sacrificing this cohesion to pursue one solution. My personal fix to Gambler is to limit the maximum times it can attack. I think 4 times or even 5 times is a healthy number.

I also dislike your change to Blue Conjurer. If I would address its RNG, I would remove certain cards from his card pool that has no application in Vanar decks, such as Nocturne, but that would be it. I would hesitate in weakening his flavor any further. There’s an extent of beauty when playing Blue Conjouer and adjusting your strategy every time you pull a different Arcanyst.

As for Strategos, I would give it the same treatment as Blue Conjurer; removing some cards from his card pool instead of your suggestion. I imagine it would be a near-torture level of boredom to play Strategos be able to predict what cards will promote into what. A solution to both of this issues is to make a token set unique to Strategos, but that’s just unrealistic.

The RNG on Horror Buster feels bad, but your change doesn’t seem like the best answer. I feel like you’re overusing the “nearest unit” mechanic, which is understandable as it’s position-based and thus is interactive, but it’s not a universal solution. An easy fix to Horror Buster is to make it transform a random friendly Wraithling. Simple, intuitive, and not as clunky.

Lastly, while this isn’t RNG related, I’d prefer it if Sunriser stays as it is. You said you wanted Healyoner to be a midrange/control archetype, but that really isn’t a feasible plan if you are taking its win-con away and leaving it no late-game options. As long as you’re not making Excelsious 7 mana or something, it is not a good idea.


#71

I’m close close to hating 3 of those 4 cards, I’m probably biased. But the thing with them, Sunriser and Flamewreath in particular, is how they can clear your whole board in 1 turn and also have a body you can’t remove with General, which prevents you from ever getting back in the match. It’s like if Plasma Storm also summoned Young Silithar behind.
And there’s almost no way to play around it, just like you can’t play around said Plasma Storm.
As a side note, it’s funny how Sunriser has more damage and also far more ways to proc her, being at the same cost as Flamewreath.
 

How about nerfing Holy Immolation and Lucent Beam for starters? 6 damage to a minion for 2 mana, just don’t go face plz, seriously? After that, we can do the same to Lava Lance and Makantor.


#72

I love mostly everything vanar, good job.

I do feel like to ger infeltrate deck working good for a meta denadoro should carry an opening gambit of what you said.
And give it 4/4.

Regarding zendo i feel like the change is bad.
The reason being:
Zendo was quite strong (not broken) pre nerf so his usage wasn’t clear.

Zendo is a manipulator, hense doesn’t need much attack (3/6 is good) plus zendo is not a frontline minion, it is clear now.
zendo needs the permenant condition (every other grandmaster is basically a closing game unit with a permenant effect).
Regarding the cost - songhai is a cheap faction with high burst when combo with the right cards.
5/7 just not fit well? 3/6 is not a game ender by itself( like other grandmasters)

Ohh yeah - thank you for breaking burn


#73

You know, I’ve been wanting to create a thread on how positioning doesn’t matter in Duelyst, with pics and math, for a long time. Maybe, I should finally do it now.
Duelyst is not a board game, it’s a semi-board game. Board exists only when you allow it to.
That’s why burn decks are a thing and why your approach will hardly work in game’s current form.


#74

I too very much dislike sunriser and think it is a bit unfair how it is an all around better flamewreath as I have mentioned before (or maybe it was on discord). The nerf I usually propose for the card is making it 3/3 as it can be activated in so many ways in addition to attacking with itself and then getting healed with BBS.

With flamewreath, I understand it is a hard card to go against which is why I suggested changes I thought was more suitable as it is a card I play with a lot. With that being said, I don’t think the card is completely unfair as many factions have ways of removing purely by using face with minions/generals because it has such a small attack. In addition, the card is much harder to combo out as you must have movement spells in your hand and will often result in a small hand afterwards.

Compare all of this to sunriser who can be activated with simple heals which not only proc other minions but you are also healing your minions and with the fact that riser has a higher attack which can kill 2 drops and then be healed back to full.

Flamewreath can be destructive for sure but it’s not something I feel warps the meta and if you can survive it, the opponent is most likely going to be dead in the water compared to Healyonar with Trinity Oath for insane draw after comboing all over you in addition with more heal procs.

EDIT: I keep comparing wreath rather than analyzing it on an individual level I feel, but I think the best summary is that you have to gather and use a lot of combo pieces for the wreath combo which is a rather mediocre combo compared to others such as 3 PF’s and 8g8s. It is also one that leaves you with a small hand afterwards.


#75

While I agree that Flamewreath is weaker then Sunriser for the most part, I’d argue that BBS + any one of Jux/MDS/IF/AP is enough for Flamewreath to do his thing.


The Purification Crusade
#76

Which is usually around 6 mana and leaves a threatening 2/4 on the board. In addition, there is no good late game behind it either if you can even count Grandmaster Zendo which requires you slapping down some big statted minion first before being threatening itself. I suppose moving your general is threatening, but at worst it is disruptive.


#77

I do think the majority of RNG should be purged. It is one of the core fundamentals of my desired changes.

I don’t understand your issue with my Abjudciator suggestion. You recommend making it weaker then I do? My suggestion lets you permanently reduce one selected spell in your hand as an opening gambit and it has a good statline? You think you should not be able to pick?

Balance is generally a priority. I think nearest unit is an elegant solution to most RNG.

If you have alternative suggestions that make Healnar midrange/lategame and not burn/burst I am all ears.

@zerounderscoreou
Flamewreath and Plasma both can absolutely be played around. Wreath is also a heavy investment, plasma is linear.

I would love such detailed insight like that.

Fixing this is one of my core fundamentals of my desired changes.

@snowshot
If Zendo is to gain a permanent condition it cant be one that removes your ability to position and puts you in the frustrating position of semi skipped turns. I am also fairly adamant about making his cost consistent with other GMs and being compensated appropriately.


#78

only positioning does matter, and anyone who says otherwise is either saltly about losing or is a jaded ex player :eyes:


#79

Wouldn’t really say that Plasma can be played around if a majority of minions your opponent has in their deck are under 4 attack and 90% of minions in your deck have 4+ attack. A common argument I see for Plasma Storm is that if it is so good, why doesn’t it see play? I would say mainly because Magmar has such efficient removal nowadays that Plasma is subpar, but as far as removal goes in a universal context, it is very good and can certainly be number one in certain matchups.


#80

Plasmastorm is an expensive card that eats your full turn and has a liniear effect. It can be played around by a combination of not over extending, buffs, and crafting your deck in a way you are not completely crippled by it.

We cant just look at things in a universal context, their practical and relevant context is important.


#81

The way to counter Plasma Storm is by not having more than one minion on the field, buffing them to 4+ attack and playing a deck with high attack minions or no minions at all.

This sounds a lot like playing burn or Magmar.