As they stand they are both balanced and have a high skill cap. But the frustration of two equal skilled players with even match ups often comes down to the dervish coin flip and I want this to be addressed. It does not need to happen, as it is one of the least offensive RNG sources, but I still think it should.
Dispel/Transform for deso. Positioning for Faie, and killin mentor.
there are some occasions where the best line is to win/lose via dervish spawns, but they are rare enough that I think the increased skill cap inherent to the RNG spawns is worth it.
Fair enough, we ultimately differ in opinion here, but I very much respect and understand your stance.
I’ll work my hand on some examples, but as a former DISCO DRAGON main in Shadowverse and forever a touch-carer/crys-cannoneer i can’t simply go along your crusade of a Yog-nam scarred war veteran. I can agree in that reducing RNG is necessary but boy are you afraid of dices even in places they could be OK, but are currently loaded with too much power in the diceroll instead of using it to spice things up while the core is sufficiently stable.
Lets take a look at my look at Bur for example, since i’m looking at battle pets as a whole for some time:
You still have no control of what you get, except you’re assured it will be either Dex, Fog, Oni, Rok, Sai or Ubo, all options in rough equivalent power. At best i can discuss Rok should simply get a “Can only move one space” instead of “Can’t move” to make it further effective, but that’s that.
While Deso can be dispelled there’s no counterplay to Faie. It’s not as slow as you assume either, Mentor and Crypto are pretty nice sources of additional burn. What’s your problem with Geomancer? It basically gives Faie BBS to Hai generals. These have 8g8s, sure, but they should find the card and find and opportunity to play it early to truly use it in their gameplan, while Faie is ready from the very start.
If burn is not your main gameplan we are not speaking of burn deck.
The problem of Hai is the same as of Abyss/Vanar. They almost don’t have strong faction cards. The whole faction is keeping itself alive (barely) due to various synergies be it 8g8s and burn, Bangle and Artifacts or Backstab and teleports. Toxic or not, that is the core of the faction. The whole faction needs complete concept rework if you start tinkering with those designs.
Really, artifact Hai will be pretty dead without Bangle for better or worse. Jay disagrees, but whatever. For me losing ANY archetype is a loss. Same for burn horn. Or pretty any existing atchetype really.
Speaking of “only sources” please leave at least one teleportation spell intact, so it will be the only source of unlimited transportation. I think leaving mist dragon seal as is and jux changed is fair.
BRM is OK now when it costs 2 mana. It is one of two in faction ways to deal with artifacts, mostly. Not counting defiler of course.
Knucklestorm is too damn strong this way. Devastatingly strong. It’s better than PF in the long run this way, even without additional intensify synergies.
Bomb, Barrage, Zendo, Cobra are pretty OK if you prefer them that way. I do actually like this burn with limited counterplay aspect, promoting nice puzzles like LiTD. But Phoenix Fire producers LFox and Geo should be left with PF, at least Geo. Again, look at Faie.
And leave Bangle alone. Artifacts have lots of counterplay, there’s no reason to nerf it. Artihai is not more highrolly than NoSE. No reason to nerf one and buff another.
This is not counterplay. It is luck of the draw, which is really not much better than RNG (in fact, it is RNG).
I’m quite surprised by your answer. Then every removal or minion played is the luck of the draw. You’re not in control of any match. Match plays itself.
How do you still play this boring game?
My issue with Geomancer is the amount of redundancy. My issue with Spellhai burn was the fact that it can be the entire gameplan, and it’s a gameplan with no counterplay that has no place in a tactical board game, so yes pure burn is intended to be removed, and instead is moved closer to Faie style of that can be a big part of your gameplay, still much bigger in songhai, but you need to supplement it with other factors. They still have more then Faie, but not to the point of being unhealthy. They still have PF, Knuckle, Spiral, half of barrage, mantra and clever use of thunder/cobra, plus mask/fourwinds. And probably things I am forgetting about.
Bangle has been a historically highrolly problematic card, and particularly now with controlled shidai and twilight celerity is even more of an issue then it was. Artifact songhai is still absolutly a thing, and now blessed with consistency and better control should nudge them to healthy rather then highroll/limited counterplay that is just burn with artifacts.
I thought I had given them tons of powerhouse cards now so they should not be suffering like before, but now actually have to play a board game.
The fact they have so many teleports mixed with backstab and movement synergy is all the more reason they should be limited, plus backstab has gotten buffed all around. If mist dragon was their only teleport then yea that would be fine, just like hearth sister. Instead we have lots of strong puzzle piece cards now.
Yes pure artifact and burn need to go, that is intended. In fact I still think they have to much, but it is part of their identity so I am trying to leave it as an option just pushed into a much healthier form.
If you replace smartly and build well rounded decks with redundancy there is almost no RNG.
Fairly harmless almost no varience RNG tends to be fine, I left all these folks alone because of it.
is what makes this game fun and every match not exactly the same. However, I hate cards like Desolator that require dispel. They are designed with the assumption that the opponent always has dispel in their hand, which should not be the case. You may not even have any transform or dispel in your deck. It’s just my opinion, but I think dispel is unhealthy for the game and should be removed entirely.
To me, counterplay is board-based or decision-based, not luck-based.
See my opening statement:
If you did not include answers or save them that is your fault. This is how the game is designed, and if you accept it and tech accordingly there is little luck involved in this aspect.
TL,DR: I agree on a lot of stuff, especially on the RNG issue and the buff/nerfs conserning Lyo, Hai, Neutrals, Abyss and Vanar, but I think you were too harsh with Vet (their Obelysk actually) and a little too soft with Magmar. I thrown my propositions based on yours. Thanks for taking time to work on this !
I completely agree with you on the RNG issue: the less the better.
When comes to the nerfs/buffs I generically agree on the idea that Vanar and Abyssian need buffs, while the other four factions, plus some neutrals and Mythron, need nerfs.
But I do have some reserves, and since you spend lots of words on all the factions, I’ll comment only on some specific features.
I do hate that Wind Dervishes are spawned in random spots, and ideally I’d prefer them to be spawn always in a convenient place, perhaps on a tile nearby the closest enemy.
That said I’d never want to trade that possible feature for lower stats like you’re suggesting because that would make the Obelysk basically useless and unplayable.
They have lots of hp and that makes them resilient, but the absence of movement, the absence of attack which makes them vulnerability to minions and generals with almost never no ripercussions, and the weakness to dispell, make them already fair and incredibly unique in this game.
Kha: though I wouldn’t go ballistic as you did, I could be fine with some kind of a rework on the stats and/or the cost, but I wouldn’t remove Flying. Some kind of limit in the way it “reincarnates” in other Dervishes could be applied, like for example to have it completely disappear at the end of turn.
That said, I cannot keep myself from insisting on the fact that Kha seems more of a problem only for Smash Vaath (occasionally Ziran), against which Vetruvian has always suffered (except when they tech/manage to pull Superior Mirage on a Makantor and opponent at 12+ face dmg or less hp), and finally with Kha has managed to flip the table and punish an archetype that otherwise has had answers for anything against Vet, or at least to its most competitive archetypes pre Ra-Fault-Kha.
Rae: agree, it could even stay 1/1 or 2/1, I generically dislike the card which as it is has only use for ramp and quick enabler for Fault, and taken that away it could finally go back in the oblivion where it should have stayed (along with battle pets, but that’s my very personal opinion ).
Zirix BBS: agree on the possibility of examination. A rework on the rng would be desirable but would surely require adjustments somewhere else, even on other generals’ BBS.
- Rippers: your stats’ proposition is good, but I’d even go as far as taking celerity away in favour of something else, like possibility to move an extra tile.
Celerity is still a problem and the facility with which you transform a BBS token in an OP wincon is unfair.
There are few cards which perhaps don’t see that much play,perhaps because function in very specific archetypes, or are not perceived as OP or unhealthy because there are other scapegoats, but in the view of a potential balance I think that there are some cards that could see a little rework: Ragebinder, Haruspex and Gigaloth.
Ragebinder has just too much stuff: heals 3 with bond, can come at 2 mana with Metallurgist and has rebirth. Maybe making it a 3/3, raising the cost to 4, or taking away rebirth would make it fairer
Haruspex: this card is a joke, the fake “card-draw downside” is a joke. At least should be a 6/6 or 6/5.
Gigaloth: with Timekeeper you can get this big dude rolling in no time, generating a very out of hand advantage. Making it less tanky, like a 6/6, and making the buff a +2+2 would normalize it a bit.
*Flash Reincarnations: if I’m not mistaken, you haven’t said anything about this one, but I think that such a card functions as a way too strong enabler for Wanderer, Decispikes, and Makantor.
I don’t know what would be the ideal rework, maybe targeting only Magmar minions and/or limiting to 1 mana the reduction, but at the actual state of things its co-responsible of some of the most broken things in the game.
Just want to say that I’m glad you addressed specifically Wanderer, Decimus, Rocka, Abju, Grimes and Bloodswarn G.
Overall I think we agree on a lot of ideas and cards that should be changed, and I believe a balance patch is now priority n°1, way more important than a new expansion.
Thanks for the lists and consideration, I hope the game will take a similar direction to the one we wish it to take .
EDIT: I took off the Lyonar and Hai part. I’m not really sure about these two factions, and I mean that I would like to see a rework but I don’t really have a solid opinion on how.
I think some of these two factions’ cards and mechanics - in particular cards like Titan, Mantra and some of the out of hand damage stuff - should be reworked in favour of other cards, keywords and mechanics which should be reinforced.
With celerity gone on top of hatches gone, they would be pathetically weak. Awesome combos that have counterplay/set up are a good thing. Remember don’t just look at rippers, look at the whole of the egg changes/changes to neutral and other factions.
And again refer to my opening statement of we want things to be strong. Magmar is very good, but has been fair and balanced aside from deci Spikes/ripper combos/abjucator abuse for some time. All of which have been addressed. I want all factions to have a core package like ragebinder, and I think my proposals achieve that. Most of the flash problems have been addressed, it is an inherently balanced card aside from fringe cases. As for Haru/Gig they are both good enough to see play, but are far from good enough to be mainstream or problematic, particularly with the other ways the faction has been addressed.
My Oblysk suggestion has not been well received. Once I am off mobile I think I will add @cold52 suggestion in possibly with some health buffs. I still think people are underestimating the ability to position them defensively with my suggestion, but I welcome the feedback, I am trying to do a good job.
There are other ways to fix Kha sure, I just went with a simple one. Do remember in return it is four mana which is a big deal. Most importantly it needs to not completely shut down Attack buffed generals because that removes normal checks and balances in the game and is polarizing. How it happens I don’t particularly care, but it does need to happen.
Your song hai proposals fall into the usual nerf trap of just making things bad. I don’t want to nerf, I want to improve health.
This game has one, fundamental difference, from all other card games. You can’t respond during your opponent’s turn.
That makes all burn decks completely unfair. That’s why they’re so toxic.
You mean, one fundamental difference from Eternal and MTG?
No. I don’t.
I’ve been playing card games for 30+ years.
I haven’t experienced another one like Duelyst.
That’s why I want it to be so much better. It is the only one that has that potential.
I actually didn’t quite understand what you tried to say in the small paragraph about the eggs, but surely Rippers have to be seen in the big picture, so a thing such as Celerity would be tolerable.
Still, your ripper with Greater Fortitude is still capable of 8 damage, which enabled at the cost of 5 mana with Inceptor (without counting the possible piling of Fortitude) is still quite broken, so I don’t think that just making it a 2/1 is the only thing to do.
I also agree on the quality “core package”, yet it’s a bit contraddictory your opinion on Obelysks, but I’m glad to see that you are reconsidering your opinion on that.
Ragebinder is arguably the strongest piece among any minion core package, and compared to the other minions that should be at its level, he’s just too well equipped.
Concerning Haru/Gig, I think they’re designed in a dangerously OP way: though they’re not a threat for the meta, they’re not toxic, in the big picture they should be considered for a small review as they’re honestly too smorky, especially Haru.
I’m not sure what would be the best solution for 8gates/Mantra, but as they are, it’s clear we both agree that they could use some rework which certainly doesn’t fall in the buff department.
btw, an alternate reading on Zendo i just came up with and would like your take on it:
“The enemy general may take Backstabs from all three spaces behind them.”
It still is continual, general-base, gives back an opportunity to play around, but severely weakens the enemy by tripling the opportunities for a kidney shank.
Egg morph and Wild inceptor no longer hatch eggs. Instead they give eggs a massive health boost. This means no more out of hand combos before nine mana. This puts rippers on par with stuff like Argeon/Lion, but you can also still build a deck around eggs. And as always the smaller a nerf the better or you fall into the usual trap of overpowered into far to weak, when middle ground is the goal.
I think folks overate Ragebinder, it does not make it into all my Magmar decks, and back when we still had 4/3 Sunsteel it made it into almost none of them. I think it’s a strong well designed minion on par with things like battle pando, silvegaurd knight, and the like. It’s so popular now because all of its compeition got nerfed. So let’s not go after it to.
The others? Strong yes. Problematic? No. Strong but not problematic is exactly what I want to see over all.
Also about holy, yes I agree making it actually heal would be better, but we can’t nerf one factions staple with out nerfing them all, and I am in the boat nerfing none, since factions should have strong staples.
@zanestheargent sollid, but I think it’s to niche. The way I made it it’s a powerful staple that also still works for backstabs but not just them. Which was my goal for songhai in general, make them powerful but not unhealthy.
Slight balance suggestion
Slight balance suggestion