Core Set and Rotation Changes


#21

yeah exactly… if everything goes well we get 2 ladders… one can be used for casual then


#22

Hearthstone shows that such a ‘wild’ format can still possess the same rewards for playing that the standard format has.


#23

We will have news about game modes and formats closer to the date of the actual rotation.

Think of this as an announcement to that announcement.


#25

I expected this to come around eventually. It’s inevitable in a growing CCG.

That being said, there’s a few things I’d like to say.

One, I’m super happy for the changes to the core set. There were many cards that really needed to be available to some factions to help them stay forever relevant. Here’s looking at you, Blood of Air. I’m also happy to see the grandmasters stick around, since they’re a part of the faction’s identity. I’m rather surprised to see Sunsteel Defender go, but I suspect this was a decision made based on how powerful it is universally. I think they’d rather open up the meta a bit instead of leaving him in (and then appropriately get used in 30% of decks). I’m a little sad to see Night Watcher go though, here’s hoping we won’t ever feel like we need him. Having him around felt like having insurance.

Second, and more personally now… I really REALLY hope there will be a casual game format added that does not require sticking to the set rotation. I like card games for the deck building and running memes/shenanigans. I don’t want to watch my deck building space shrink, but I fully understand why this can’t stick around on the ladder. Just please give us an alternative.

If we seriously can’t get another game mode to avoid rotating seasons… I don’t think I can keep playing. I do not play enough to earn cards fast enough to build competitive decks on a yearly basis. Although I do tend to spend money on the game from time to time, I do this because I want to. If I feel like I have to spend money, I will probably quit. So unless we can expect to be able to use our cards again in the future, or we get either significant reimbursment for the cards we lose or increased ability to gain new cards… I’m afraid a change like this may signal my time to leave.

Edit: Just saw @ThanatosNoa’s post about announcing information relevant to game modes and formats in the future. Thanks for the info, I await this news with bated breath.


#26

I’m also strongly against rotations.

This point seems kinda weak to me.

The main reason for this change IMAO is that CPG is afraid of their inability to further produce both balanced and innovative content.

I like having as much options as possible, so I hope we can have unrotated ladder with all cards produced and the same prizes as rotated one. If not I’ll be very dissapointed.

Balance changes are big, however. I don’t know what to think about them, but it’s very brave to change the very core of the core cards :slight_smile:

Also, thanks for informing us in advance. That’s refreshing, and I’m really grateful :wink:


#27

BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE NERFS THO

Antifun cards finally getting the treatment they deserve, restructuring the Core set to make more sense, opening up the noncraftable expansions, this is pretty much nothing but good news imo.

The unlimited format is probably coming as soon as the rotation begins, so I’m not worried about that. Also, thanks a bunch for the heads up!


#28

I hate the idea of rotations and not being able to take advantage of certain synergies or cards, but I guess we’ll see.

The nerfs are rather shocking, but not unfounded. Will me interesting to see how they play out.

The thing that interests me the most is the removal of Skorn, Sunsteel, Dioltas and a wide swath of legendaries from the core set. These three cards have been always powerful and always solid in any new player’s deck. All of these changes seem to be geared towards newer players, since making these cards only craftable has zero effect on veterans.

I honestly don’t know what will hold Magmar back from just reigning over the meta.

RIP Lurking Fear, I’ll miss you so much


#29

It has:now with them craftable we can disenchant all the garbage within the 2 miniexpansions to get tons of spirit


#30

Somehow the change of Chromatic Cold hit me the hardest… This one damage means so much. there is so much now CC can’t handle.

I gotta see the new expansion. I really feel like Vanar got hit in the wrong spot here.


#31

Changes good, rotation bad. Particularly so with removing from play (for a year?) iconic cards like Eclipse, Mogwai, NIgthwatcer, Ruby Rifter, who never were OP in any sense…why?


#32

Hey @ThanatosNoa , it looks like the community is a bit butt hurt over set rotation. Maybe you could maybe possibly slip us a few spoilers to make us feel better? :snowchaser:


#33

im uncertain about these rotations
on one hand it stops thunderhorn + shimzar combos completely and seraphim reflection combos half of the time
on the other hand it really limits creep decks to near unplayable levels no matter whats in rotation
are the cards removed from core set still considered core in the ladder? or are they permanently removed from competitive?

also for people wondering about excelcious being in the changelog and zir not, zir was always in core set.

those nerfs were a long time coming though.


#34

Ah… Healyonar is a safehaven then. I will mark this.


#35

@ThanatosNoa for cards like Sunsteel, Dioltas and Skorn who have no set, are they just permanently removed from ladder play when the rotations begin?


#36

Yes. i believe this is saying yes


#37

So that means that Duelyst now has a forbidden list?


#38

They removed those cards because they do not want them to be available every year. Some cards are too much of a deck staple methinks.

@divinedevek On the note of the removed cards being unplayable at all; never thought of that, disliking such a move heavily if it’s as we fear it might be.


#39

@divinedevek copied what I was going to reference.

Those cards removed from the core set will no longer be playable in standard ladder.

Please keep in mind this is an announcement to a future announcement for game modes, which we will cover once we get closer to the next expansion in 2018.

(We just didn’t want to surprise anyone by saying “yo these cards are gone and can’t be played… starting today”)

We’re working on getting the site will all the card spoilers up for you guys, so hang tight!


#40

I’m going to leave my thoughts about why I think rotating sets in a growing CCG are necessary, since it seems like a good place to make the argument.

If the card pool in a game with a ladder/ranking system is ever growing, your design space is shrinking. This isn’t just because you have less new card possibilities (“Oh, this new card is nearly the exact same as one from 3 sets ago but with better stats!”), but also because every new card created has to be weighted against every other card that has already been made. This makes is very hard to balance some cards as they are made. Alone, a card the community considers good or even somewhat powerful but not broken can become broken when it interacts with another card in the game. Think of the infamous Aspect of Shimzar and Thunderhorn combo. Both cards are actually good, and many would even argue that Thunderhorn is overpowered, but there are a lot of people who do not mind these cards individually but HATE how strong this combo is.

Now imagine that every time a new card is released there’s the possibility of another card combo like this coming to the surface. It can be predicted and avoided in the design stage, but the normal way to do this is to remove the function of the new card that made it unique in the first place. As such, the design of the card had to be changed in a negative way just to promote healthy, but boring balance.

There’s also one more reason to do set rotations. Yes, they DO want to design and release newer, powerful cards. They want to do this to make the game more fun but without trivializing deck building. But if the card pool becomes big enough, eventually deck building will become flat and boring. You just pick all of the best cards you can run and maybe fill in a few optional slots for other purposes.

Furthermore, you can expect they want to incentivize players to buy or earn packs from their new set. The way to do this is making strong, appealing or more interesting cards. It’s very hard to do this without ruining the balance of your game if you’re always adding powerful cards every expansion. The game can and will break. It’s not about how good they are at balancing cards, it’s a matter of providing players options. Adding options, itself is powercreep.

To those of you out there who are nay-sayers. I want you to understand, I’m iffy about these changes too. I don’t even like to play competitively. But I also want you to see why this is necessary for a healthy game. There may be other options out there that can be taken, but I don’t know them and I don’t think any of them are proven yet.


Was Excited, Now I am terrified: Game Update Gripes
#41

But that’s huge. Why not add them to Shimzar instead of literally permanently removing them, these are some people’s favorite cards