Duelyst Forums

Core Additions - What are the prerequisites?

Like many of you I am dreading the eventual set rotation, not because I believe that set rotation is Satan’s handshake or that it will cause the sky to fall, but rather because of the loss of two cards from my arsenal. Sphere of Darkness and Gnasher.

When I first saw Maehv I had nearly zero interest in her, and didn’t think her playstyle would be particularly interesting. She was the last of the new Generals I unlocked, due mainly to the lack of a decent Abyssian deck on my part.

But after using her I have found I absolutely love her playstyle and have tried desperately to build a deck with her that is top-tier and is tailored to my playstyle and the things I enjoy most about her. I have come close, but frankly it feels like I’m building a Lego Death Star with a quarter of the pieces missing.

Which is why i am dreading the set rotation and the hit it represents to Maehv and others. This is why I want to know if you guys have any inkling as to what the devs have in mind when adding cards to the core set, whether from the Discord channels or elsewhere.

I can understand Sphere of Darkness, which is a cantrip, allows mana tile denial and pings for minions and artifacts all for 1 mana. It’s so good it makes it difficult to design anything remotely similar, like trying to design a cantrip for Vet resulted in the disastrous Burden of Knowledge vs First Wish.

Looking at the other cards that were moved from the Core Set, it seems the devs want to remove the sorts of cards that are basically auto-includes for any deck that doesn’t have a very strict gameplan, cards like Sunsteel Defender, Dioltas and the like. These cards are just such good all-rounders that any archetype that doesn’t need every card in it to be geared towards a specific strategy will use one of the above.

The Core Set is supposed to represent the basic building blocks for every faction, the foundation on which they would build, supplementing their decks with cards from the expansions for specific archetypes but often leaning heavily on the Core Set, which is why cards like Blood of Air have been moved to Core.

So I would like to know what kind of thought process goes into the cards that are moved to Core and whether the devs will likely take our suggestions into consideration on this matter. Cards like Gnasher are far from staples and are not auto-included in a wide range of decks, but alone they often perform a very important role in a single General’s playstyle, namely Maehv’s only source of competitive AoE. I think Gnasher’s addition to Core would be quite fair personally, as it brings Maehv closer to being truly viable and doesn’t inhibit CPG’s future card designs.

There will be more card like Gnasher in the future, cards that make Ilena or Shidai viable in a way that doesn’t pigeonhole them so harshly, and I would hope that the devs consider adding them to the Core roster so that even though they might not be consistently top-tier, each and every General has at least some foundation on which to build.

So what do you guys think? Is the core set fine as it is, or do you have any suggestions as to how the devs should consider what gets placed in Core and what does not? What kind of prerequisites should be put in place to ensure the Core Set is well structures, but not overly bloated?

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I will contribute more to this conversation later but my current argument is mainly regarding the existence of neutral minions and why they are bad. You even point it out with Gnasher and how great it is for Abyss and suck for everything else. This is the case for all neutral minions making them not neutral since they are greatly preferred in certain factions and for the ones viable in all factions are usually the broken ones.

Here’s how it works:

There are Core Set staples.

And then there are staples that come with the expansions.

Expansions must have staples to make them necessary for competitive play, and for players to invest in them. Sphere is an excellent example of this.

What this means is that the Devs know this, and they will undoubtedly give us new powerful tools and staples to make Maehv strong with the next xpack, hopefully some removal or ping. And in the next year, hopefully Lilithe will get something to replace Furiosa.

Iris Barrier is a great example of a new card to replace a rotating one (Falcius).

As far as adding cards to the core set, I think they did a fine job but won’t continue to add cards to it, lest they reduce the value of future expansions since all the staples you need are in core.

Something I would like is new basic cards, so that newer players have a chance to try out simple Bond and Blood Surge effects to understand the mechanics, just like the simple Opening Gambit/Dying Wish/Golem/Flying/etc card’s.

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Honestly I’m very worried about Abyssian. Maehv still doesn’t have enough support, Cass will lose almost all support she has by now and viability of Lilithe is arguable also. How they could fix 3 generals in one expansion I have no idea.

Other factions do not have similar problem.

On topic though. Speaking of Maehv, I’d like to mention that almost no 3rd general has support in the core set. Let’s check:

Lyo - almost no swarm support in core.
Hai - lots of spellprocs in core.
Vet - no support in core, not much support anywhere actually.
Abyss - almost no support in core, not much anywhere.
Magmar - some egg minions in core, only one is really useful (2mana silithar).
Vanar - i give up here, cause I don’t know what counts as support for general nobody plays at all.

So, Maehv’s just in the same boat as everyone. Except Shidai - but she’s not that good, actually.

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Abyssian and Vetruvian Will be hit so hard when shimzar Will rotated out that next expansion needs to be Amazing for this factions (i would love sphere of darkness and falcius to core) .
Like alplod said, the big problem is that new generals have almost no support in the core set and this hould be addressed by moving some cards from later expansions to core imho

For Ragnora there was already pre-existing Eggmar support that has made him quite strong. Granted it was not a huge foundation but the cards they did have were very strong.

Ilena of course has nothing. They tried but none of the cards released for her in IV were anywhere close to optimal enough for her to use.

Tbh I think people might have misread Brome and Ciphyron. Brome is strong simply by having the ability to create Provoke minions on command. I think he just happened to have strong synergy with Swarm but I’m not sure if he was meant to be a “Swarm General”.

Ciphyron is similar in that I’m not sure the devs were really committing to the whole Sabotage archetype considering the lack of support the archetype got besides Paradigm.

I do share your worries though about the viability of Abyssian though. The Core cards for Abyssian are almost universally terrible. Besides the Swarm related cards none of the others are particularly useful and give very little support to the Generals besides Lilithe. Having a couple cards brought into the Core, whether they’re neutral or Abyssian would go a long way in strengthening their foundation.

@whyb0t I definitely like the idea of basic cards with Bond and Blood Surge mechanics for new players. However I feel a lot of those cards will be near useless education-wise once Bloodbound Ancients rotate out as that expansion contains almost all of the cards with those Keywords. If they do decide to bring in more cards like Bloodbound Mentor in the future though I would fully support some basics with those keywords.

@phoenixtoasches So as I understand it you want to make all neutral minions faction minions?

I think additions, deletions and reworks of core cards are valuable to ensure that:

  1. Faction identities are properly ironed out
  2. Basic support for intended faction archetypes is provided
  3. The power level of cards is kept in check

This would explain the choice of introducing Grand Masters in core (1) and removing a few neutral staples like Dioltas and Sunsteel Defender (3). I think I’m mostly fine with the upcoming changes, what worries me the most is Shadow Creep.
This has been noted multiple times, but Shadow Creep is faction-defining (see Cassyva’s BBS), yet it is horrible in the core set. I’d like to see some love for it in Core, though new cards to support it are certainly coming in the next expansions.

@tsevech On your #1 point I feel like most of the factions do have their identity quite solidly defined on the Core Set, a lot of the factions, particularly Songhai, Lyonar and Magmar.

However looking at the Core Set for Abyssian they are clearly the weakest in terms of the strength of their Core Set with a lot of cards being pretty dead, and as you say Creep Cass was defined by Shimzar which is rotating soon. Tbh to keep Creep Cass a thing only a couple cards would need to be brought into Core and maybe a couple more Creep Cass cards in the expac would be enough to keep it current.

However considering there will only be roughly a dozen new Abyssian cards in the next expac I can’t see them providing enough support to bring Abyssian out of it’s current rut without throwing one of the generals under the bus.

The most recent expansion added new cards with Bloodsurge, I think it’s safe to say that future expansions will as well. Not sure about Bond but I assume they won’t let he keyword die.

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