Church of the Mankantor (State of Magmar thread 11-14-2017) Magmar Immortal Vanguard cards


#1

Church of the Mankantor (State of Magmar thread 11-14-2017) Magmar Immortal Vanguard cards

Disclaimer

This is a MAGMAR thread,It is bias towards Magmar issues.This thread isn’t about the overall health of game but overall health of one faction.Some of the views will lean towards complaining about faction that you might view in good health or strong but if you can’t communicate constructively those feelings please go else where seriously go start your own thread. We are trying to talk about the root issues with faction even if they are in good shape.


Here is the full link

Lets begin

Initial thoughts: Probably the card that will make Pupabomb solid attack minion in middle of group it turns into a egg,Then blow it up. It card has side use as removal for rebirth and dying wish minions that spawn in the same spot

Initial thoughts: A little better with time keeper being a card. Decent card

Initial thoughts: Looks custom made for Starhorn swarm mech builds that don’t care about old school mech cards

Initial thoughts: Perfect draw card for Ragnora

Initial thoughts: Basically a 5/1 ,It health onlys comes into play with pings and stuff but Might be interesting alternate finisher option in Ragnora

Initial thoughts: With Lava lance and Thumping Leaving this could help fill the gap.More of a Starhorn card

Initial thoughts: Very Very good removal card.That will also help fill loss of range removal

Initial thoughts: Seems like more of a Vaath card maybe occasional you can do some scary things if they don’t silence vaath

Initial thoughts: Cool card that might set up some nice combos

Initial thoughts: An Amazing card if it ever gets to do anything

Initial thoughts: Probably worse than most people think it is but when works it will have a big impact

Initial thoughts: Mini Meltdon

Initial thoughts: Probably the most controversial card of the set and people are heavily overrating it.


– At work I will put card descriptions later/Use the link


  1. What is your favorite card so far?

  2. How do you feel about the Magmar full set?

  3. What neutral card do you feel will fit good in Magmar?


Saurian Finality And Why It's Bad For The Game | Card Analysis w/ TheTacticalGmr
#2

Prediction: mag will be t0 this expansion.

Homeostatic Rebuke and Saurian Finality are the two singularly most powerful cards of the set, with rebuke not only serving as a conditional 3 mana board clear, but also further egg synergy. Morin khur combos are noted as well with this card.

Saurian finality is backbreaking for other factions, banishing midrange and control alike back to a lasher dominated midgame.

Expect to see ragnora rise to unprecedented heights as well as a resurgence of a new and far more deadly solo vaath on ladder.


#3

I’m inclined to agree with you here. Those two cards are completely nuts. I’m not going to enjoy playing against Magmar as anyone but Magmar, I suspect. With homeostatic rebuke it looks like the designers made virtually the exact same mistake they made with enfeeble. Wouldn’t surprise me if two weeks into the expansion we get a nerf coming down the pipes for that one. And saurian finality…how are you supposed to kill a Magmar general that can heal for ten, likely twice in one game, while also buffing his attack a crapton and generally ruining your next turn?


#4

Don’t forget your Drogon :sweat:

Vanar counters, basically every 2 mana spell that doesn’t transform.

beam shock heal Ziran? provoke swarm above 3 attack & 5 health Brome? Titan?

I’m interested to see if the side effect of minus mana is permanent. Then Vanar is a really bad match up. top deck crystal wisp to actually gain mana.


#5

Homeostatic is balanced by yours minions on the board being killed. Magmar actual plays good minions unlike Vanar . Saurian Finality reinforces Magmar identity as a control faction. SF might not be as easy to use people think. It does nothing to minions on the board and if your health is low minions are probably on the board.

The rotation is really going to hurt Magmar,so evaluations need to consider that as well.I live this before what happens when you don’t draw range removal? Trust me plasma storm and natural selection whiff alot in that area.


#6

…I’m calling it now, homeostatic rebuke is Enfeeble 2: Electric Boogaloo and saurian finality makes Magmar unreasonably hard to actually kill. I have no faith in these cards to prove that they’re anything other than overpowered.

Incoming opinions, standard disclaimer, et cetera.

Homeofeeble refeeble just hates way too hard on swarm boardstates of any kind for its cost, compared to other solutions which either cost a lot more mana or only hit for one, and can also be used to wipe out stronger stuff, anything that doesn’t have forcefield or attack lower than its current health. Since the Magmar general’s the one pulling the trigger on it, when the boardstate favors them, they can hold off, and if it ever stops favoring them, they can get as much use out of whatever they have left as possible, then nuke everything, or a lot of things at any rate.

Saurian finality may not be useable if your opponent’s boardstate is too overwhelming, but if you’re packing three homeowhatevers and a plasma storm for backup, and, you know, lavaslashers and warbeasts, it’ll be really hard for them to end their turn with a boardstate scary enough that you can’t come out ahead with saurian finality. Of note, if you drop it at seven mana, your max drops to four, meaning on your next turn it goes to five (lavaslasher) and the next turn to six (warbeast). And the turn they take after saurian finality comes down will be pretty crippled, what with the three less mana and their general being stunned. This spell just does way too much for its cost.

So that’s my take on it.

…Makantor warbeast to 3/5 lavaslasher to 4/6 homeostatic rebuke to five mana saurian finality only heals for six only reduces your mana by two and the enemy’s by one only gives one attack power mana cost down to six.


#7

Rage Reactor:
Flavor: 6/10
Power: 2/10
This really doesn’t seem like it’s worth the slot much. Perhaps when combined with the artifact that gives your general frenzy, or with the spell that prevents a minion from counter attacking, so you can get the most value from it. Most opposing minions will be in close proximity to other enemies, so the eggs won’t exactly stay long. However, there may be some hidden combos that can make this card somewhat usable.

Biomimetic Hulk:
Flavor: 4/10
Power: 4/10
Although it is a bit slow, there is a lot of potential here. Flashing this out is quite easy, and can dish out some good damage if you defend it. The main thing holding this back is being unable to use one of your most powerful removal spells, natural selection, while this is on the field. It also is very easily removed, but that isn’t so bad, since having a 2 mana minion soak up removal is pretty much a win. Works really well with Keeper as an early drop.

Seismoid:
Flavor: 5/10
Power: 5/10 (6/10 in Starhorn)
Definitely solidified Starhorn as the premier mech general for Magmar. Also works really well with replicant; there’s some pretty nasty decimus combos with him. However, outside of comboing with other mechs, this card is very weak.

Embryotic Insight:
Flavor: 6/10
Power: 5/10 (8/10 with Ragnora)
Two mana draw is incredibly valuable, and even with the contingency of needing an egg, this card will definitely see play. Obviously much stronger for Ragnora due to his ability to use it more consistently.

Erratic Raptyr:
Flavor: 8/10
Power: 4/10
This guy is reeeeeally cool looking. Definitely am a fan of how he looks, and that stat line makes me sweat. The ability is very interesting as a concept, but I think it will hold the card back too hard for it to see much play. At least it will pretty much kill any minion that procs it though.

Upper Hand:
Flavor: 7/10
Power: 2/10 (3/10 in Starhorn)
Quite obviously another Starhorn card, but not necessarily restricted to him. I really don’t see a single-target damage based removal offering much use, however. Doesn’t compete much with any other removal card.

Homeostatic Rebuke
Flavor: 8/10
Power: 8/10
Oh man. That’s a really cheap board removal. This has the potential to be very strong, but with how common minions with higher health than attack are, I think it is definitely not overbearing. Has an intriguingly good synergy with build cards.

Effulgent Infusion
Flavor: 6/10
Power: 2/10 (6/10 for Vaath)
I think the only interesting thing about this card, and probably its primary use, is some sort of combo involving drogon and a minion on the board. Pretty much only usable for Vaath, but I might play around with this in solo Vaath as a finisher or cheap burst late game.

Progenitor
Flavor: 8/10
Power: 7/10
This guy is so cool! Very respectable for his statline, and the opening gambit is respectable. It’s interesting in that it works well for both swarm (for more eggs) and big minions (for those sweet eggs). Definitely stronger if you are in the lead, which is almost like the second coming of Chrysalis Burst. Just as weak to AoE and ping though. Definitely hope to pull this guy.

Gigaloth
Flavor: 7/10
Power: 6/10
It’s really strong, I’ll give it that. But Magmar’s midgame is incredibly important, and this would be a pretty serious loss of momentum. However…If this lives, it coincidentally comes out on the same turn as you can play Makantor. Let’s just think about that for a moment.

Pupabomb:
Flavor: 8/10
Power: 5/10 (7/10 for Ragnora)
The egg’s gonna die before the next turn anyways, might as well go out…with a bang. But for real, this card is a little difficult to proc outside of Ragnora, but with rebirth minions being pretty nice nowadays this could see play outside of that general.

Armada
Flavor: 7/10
Power: 7/10
Although it is a little spendy, this guy can really pull his weight if you can protect him. It might turn out to be a control Magmar staple. Also, firing this guy off three times in a turn with cryptographers just sounds hilarious. Fire the artillary!

Saurian Finality
Flavor: 8/10
Power: 6/10 (8/10 for Vaath)
This card is probably the most interesting card revealed due to its notable concoction of abilities. Rightfully so, it may be the most controversial. But in the end, I think this is not quite as strong as people are making it out to be. It does not swing momentum in the user’s favor as heavily as other 7-drops. However, it really supports Vaath’s playstyle, and will probably be used exclusively with him. You can bet I’ll be using him in Solo Vaath if I pull it!

Notable neutrals: Replicant for Seismoid, Bloodbound Mentor for some deck types, and Capricious Marauder for my own personal lulz with Flash Reincarnation and Primordial Ballast.


#8

Homostatic is not all that amazing. Notably it does nothing to the still omnipresent Vanar Walls, and precludes having a board if your own.


#9

So the deck is

3 Homeostatic rebuke
3 plasma storm
3 lavaslasher
3 Warbeast
3 Saurian Finality

That’s 16 slots tied up

I am assuming the general is Ragnora because it is so “OP” as well,Ragnora has a basic package of cards that are almost must plays

3 great forts
3 Young Silthar
3 Cryptographers
3 Golem Metalgurist
3 Rage Binders
3 Egg Morphs

Thats is 19 cards. Which brings the deck up to 34 cards. Which means you only have 2 more spots.We haven’t put in card draw.Ragnora got Embroytic Insight

3 Embroytic Insight

Just about anything can go in the deck now but you notice that you don’t any 4 drops minions and it is a egg deck

3 Wild Interceptors.

Now I am not going to lie this turn out alot better than thought it would but it has clear weakness.


#10

Rage Reactor (4/10):
Not a bad T1 play for every General assuming most early drops don’t have 4+ health. Slowing down the opponents gameplan because he probably has to care about an egg. Worth a slot? Not shure. Impact isn’t impressive but for 1 Mana it may be an OKisch early play.

Biomimetic Hulk (3/10):
We all haven’t played with the new Build mechanic. I believe cards with Build(3) (or higher) are not playable in general because they are too slow. Almost impossible to get it “spawned” where you need it. Destroys Natural Selection. So I don’t not see it in the game that much.

Seismoid:
Mech. I’m not willing to talk about Mechs.

Embryotic Insight (4/10)(7/10 with Ragnora):
With Ragnora it’s basically 2 Mana for 1 card - which might not be that bad. Vaath doesn’t need it, Starhorn has his BBS. The cycle-effect thins out the deck wich is always nice.

Erratic Raptyr (6/10):
5 Damage and an Egg for 3 Mana. Not bad. Funny effect: If the opponent dispels it, it will get stronger - so it probably doesn’t suck a dispel. A bit of Chakkram reloaded - which is an underrated card I think.

Upper Hand (?/10):
Puh! I really have no feeling about this card. 3 Mana seems too much to me because of being situational as hell. Can only damage Minions - so why playing this over Ragebinder or any <3-Drop-Of-Choice>? So… 3/10 maybe?

Homeostatic Rebuke (7/10):
My first thought: Plasma Storm for Build-Decks. Good card against Argeon but does nothing against Walls. Depending how the Meta shifts (swarmy, low attack versus Midrange/Control) we now have two tools to chose from. Has some nice effects with Juggie on board or Taygete + this for 7.

Effulgent Infusion (3/10)(7/10 for Vaath):
Too expensive for Ragnora and Starhorn, can be devastating with Vaath. Can be played at 9 with Warbeast for guaranteed ragequits - so I kinda like it.

Progenitor (6/10)(8/10 for Swarm)
I like this guy. Statline is good, the effect is good. Almost always good anytime for swarmy decks and for the others: A fattie laying down an Egg is nothing to ignore, too. I see this guy being played while the 4-slot is full of options.

Gigaloth (6/10):
Again: I don’t think Build mechanic is made for Magmar because of killing Natural Selection. Build(2) isn’t that bad. If it lives and gives you one proc it’s massive value. This and Makantor or this and Ripper… sounds not that bad.

Pupabomb (4/10)(7/10 for Ragnora):
I think this card is a bit overrated. It’s nearly useless for Vaath and Starhorn. For Ragnora it’s 5 Mana AND sacrificing an Egg for 4 Damage AOE. This sounds fair and not OP in any way. The effect can help in many situations - so for Ragnora it may become a 2-of-staple.

Armada (8/10):
It’s like many already said: A healthy Meltdown. A good body and a potential game-winner for 5 Mana with Flash and BBS if not silenced. I like that positioning matters a lot. This for the offender and the defender. On paper one of the best designed cards in this game in my opinion. I’m curious how it works out in practice.

Saurian Finality (6/10):
Six out of ten you may ask. But, hey: It’s 7 Mana. You’ll always have to have this in mind when judging the card. Other Generals can spam the Stun effect every (other) turn - so if we trust the Devs this is an effect which is not toxic. (Me, personally, could rage because of Ilena… is that her name?) I don’t see this card Vaath-exclusive. 2 Attack for the General also helps Starhorn and Ragnora. I’m not shure if it’s played over Earth Sphere because of the massive Mana cost. I think it’s overrated at the moment in the discussions.

Notable Neutrals:
Bloodbound Mentor, Q’Orrhlma’a (This one has the potential to destroy a lot of decks I think - especially with Flash.)


#11

This game really wants me to play Magmar. In 89 packs I got:
3 Saurian Finalities, one of which is Prismatic
2 Progenitor, one of which is Prismatic
1 Magmar legendary build
3 Amandas
3 pupa bombs, one of which is Prismatic
3 sunset-paragon-on-a-stick

Maybe I should quit being a filthy Vet main and embrace he lizards. All that my “favourite faction” got me are two Monolithic visions.


#12

I’ll trade you whatever I pull :joy: I’m definitely jealous


#13

Balanced by my own minions being killed? Yes, my ripper eggs, rebirth minions, and 4/9 slasher are totally scared. And if I’m vaath, it’s not like I need minions anyway since saurian kills my opponent’s wincon, pins them, and makes me a 35 hp general at least (not even counting earth sphere or ragebindet heals). Oh, and the swarmy aggro bs to kill me at 5? Plasma, rebuke, and flashkantor jesus all say hi.


#14

Of course on the forums we live in a world of " Yeah I am going to bring up the perfect scenarios and act like that is what happens all the time". In a lot of cases you don’t want to mess up your good board to destroy stuff that is how the card is balanced. You use the card make your board weak that’s the downside you you don’t want to turn 4/9 into 4/5 or 3/4 into 3/1 when you can use other forms removal and keep a health winning board

The card is strong but has obvious downside it is better when you are behind than when you are ahead or even. I am not going to mention they are faction like Lyonar,Vet or Magmar itself where tons of minions don’t have even health. Anyways Magmar kit is changing when Shimzar is rotated out and it is losing lava lance and Thumping wave. Its ability to deal with range threats and ranged value minions will be greatly weakened cards like Rebuke and Upper hand is there to fill that void. You can see many of these cards released are designed to be replacements for card leaving the game.


#15

By the same token, you really think that puny card is gonna stop the opponents big buildings, which you failed to stop and are just about to win them the game?

Sure, I can’t come up with a worse situation off the top of my head, but you get the idea; dream situations (for you or your opponent) have little place in card evaluation.


#16

Before the panic starts we’ll have to see how the meta evolves.

Homeostatic Rebuke feels similar to Plasma Storm in that it’s a symmetrical spell. Your own creatures are just as vulnerable to it as the enemies so you need to be careful how you play it.
Historically Magmar minions have fairly high attack, especially the starting staples. Fairly often they’ll also kill themselves if you play Homeostatic Rebuke.

That being said: Yes, Eggs survive and Rebirth minions survive in egg form. Eggs are also fragile and that was main reason Chrysalis Burst wasn’t played. An Egg does not survive the next turn usually unless you have a lot of them…and even then it’s just a ghost lightning away from dying.

Aside from Rebirth minions, let’s see what Magmar minions survive a homeostatic Rebuke:
Gro, Base Rancour (unlikely to be base), Warpup (due to Forcefield), Catalyst Quilbeast (1), Moloki Huntress (1), Ragebinder (1), Terradon (6, very good), Thraex (2), Vindicator (2), Taygete (1), though a very good combo), Grimrock (1), Omniseer (1), Kolossus (6!), Lavalasher, Juggernaut (6), Kraigon (due to Forcefield, otherwise he’s dead too.) Dreadnaught also lives, but who plays that guy? (also Rebirth)

From that list, the only ones that see much play are: Lavalasher, Ragebinder and Juggernaut. (From what I can see on the ladder anyway). These are also the ones that are the best off when it comes to Homeostatic.
Most of the Magmar minions are left with one hp anyway, so ghost lightning or battle pando or a creeptile finishes them off. This is only if they’re full health, so you can’t have them damaged or they’re dead too. If you attack with them after Homeostatic, they’re dead too.

Let’s not talk about the build minions, though they kill themselves too if they’ve spawned.
From the new cards: Only Armada Survives, with 1 hp.

And yes this + tons of Rebirth minions on the board + Morn’Khur can be VERY powerful. But at that point you’re already winning so anything is powerful. Same with having a Juggernaut or a Kraigon out.

Yes it’s a good card, but there’s a symmetry to it. Your minions get hurt too and oftentimes kill themselves.
You can play around this as the caster, which is a good thing otherwise why even play the spell?

They’ve tried expensive board-wipes before which failed (Flaming Stampede, Circle of Dessication, etc…), this isn’t a board-wipe as many things survive but it is good in that it’s low-cost enough you can play cards after.

I’d say it’s strong but not nearly as likely to become the horror you’re making it out to be.


#17

Magmar news


Duelyst Patch 1.92

“Flash Reincarnation - the damage dealt no longer originates from your General”

What does that mean well it means that you can no longer with Morin Khur flash out a 2 drop and reactive an eggs on the board. It also means you can’t flash out quartermaster gajj anymore. There might be a silver lining to this tho,We have to test it but flashing out minion with prophet of the white palm might prevent damage now.


NowayitsJ post a deck list on the reddit forums

It was fairly unique looking list,He has been one of more consistent deck builders.This something worth taking a look at if you have these cards already but no deck is fine tuned at this point


Also on Reddit forums I need to test to confirm if it is true or not but build minions apparently with Evolutionary Apex come out in minion form making them interesting options for that style of deck


First day of playing thoughts

  • The first deck I tried was every single build in the game I could squeeze in, so Hulk, Gigaloth with neutrals Rescue Rx, T2k5. I wasn’t trying for a good deck but i squeezed a couple wins here and there. Gigaloth feels pretty good with Time keeper. Builds aren’t a very good idea right now because everyone is expecting them. Build 1 works decent,Build 2 works Time keeper. Build 3 is pretty hard to get out

  • The next deck I tried was Mech Starhorn,It didn’t work that well for me BUT i was trying to make a swarm mech deck that get cheap Mandrakes so I can set up Big project Omega +Mandrake turns. It wasn’t really working for me even though i was getting some huge project omega. The surprise card was upper hand which work really good for me removing things.

  • The next deck i tried was basically a good stuff Ragnora. It worked pretty well. The highlight was Saurian Finality when it works and this sounds like basic gameplay knowledge but you focus on maintaining a board good board.That card is absolutely crushing when you use it. In coming back scenarios it wasn’t as good i thought it would be.

  • Test out Relquarian, Only got it out once but the effect was amazing. It could be a win con worth building around.

This expansion has many interesting stuff to play around with i really want to make a Q’ORRHLMA’A deck work


#18

I can confirm that this is true, I had it happen to me earlier today.


#19

Started messing about with Midrange Vaath:

Might switch a Spelljammer to another Sunsteel, but here’s my takeaway from playing the deck a little:

  • Homeostatic Rebuke: It’s a true powerhouse, but I won’t call it OP. It’s symmetrical and leaves a lot of stuff alive. There’s certain threats it deals very well with, like EMPs or Moonlit Basilisks or whatever, but at the same time, it leaves a lot of neutral and Lyonar minions up. Same for the mirror match. It does mess with Swarm Zirix big time, though, but is useless against Obelisks (which, coincidentally, Plasma Storm handles well). It’s powerful but conditional enough to not be gamebreaking, in my opinion.

  • Armada: I feel like the damn thing has been underrated a lot. It curves perfectly, following Lavaslaher and Makantor, can either generate value by trading or push face damage. A decent body with immediate impact is exactly why we’re playing Makantor and Lavaslasher everywhere - and Armada is an even worse must answer threat.

  • Saurian Finality: Yeah. Well. it’s an Earth Sphere, Drogon Combo enabler, root and denial. Granted, it doesn’t help with the board state, but damn. That’s honestly the only downside, isn’t it? Granted, I love the bad, bad things it does to Reflection Vanar but I’m pretty sure Finality is the most likely contender for a nerf among Magmar cards right now.

The rest of the deck is basically the usual stuff. Sunsteel gets an extra mention simply because the damn thing works so well with Rebuke. No Earth Spheres means you gotta be a little more conservative with your HP, though.


I’ve tried to work with Ragnora as well:

  • Pupa Bomb: Just no. Was really hyped for the card but getting an egg where you need it for the Bomb to hit what you want to hit is such a limiting factor, it’s honestly not worth running the card with all the other removal we have.

  • Embryotic Insight: Pot of Greed, essentially. Good card, easy to use, no need to worry about breaking symmetry. Good stuff.

  • Ripper Combo: Dunno, as much as I loved it pre-IV, I do feel it’s too inconsistent to rely on it. Even with potential Armada damage as a backup plan, it feels lacklustre.

Combo Magmar might yet be a thing, but it’s probably gonna be Starhorn with DeciSpikes and Armada. Could stuff the DeciSpikes Combo into Ragnora as well, but I guess it’s just gonna crumble and die from inconsistency altogether.

Might need to check out J’s list posted above, though.


#20

You seem to forget natural selection is a thing. As well as your MASSIVE buildings being free 0 atk food for mankantor plays.

Also, that’s nowhere near a worst case scenario.