Can we talk about Healyonar?

[phoenixtoasches]

Hello everyone, it’s been a while since I have made a thread and I usually try to refrain from doing so but something has really been itching at me lately. That thing is healyonar.

I’ve been thinking about this for a while and have come to the conclusion that it’s strong, really strong, too strong. I didn’t want to think this at first nor mention it to anyone because no one really talks about healyonar. Despite its overwhelming presence in the Meltdown League tournament as well as in ladder, I have not seen much mention of it let alone salt.

Because of this I thought, maybe I just need to get good, if no one is talking about it then it is probably just me but it’s been bugging me enough that I decided to make this thread so you guys can tell me your thoughts on the archetype.

My personal experience with the deck has been playing as Songhai in various archetypes such as Burn, Aggro, Midrange and Artifact. And in all of these matchups, I have been utterly dominated by this deck. Of course, I realize that maybe that is a trouble only one faction might be having rather than all, but it is still a wide variety of archetypes to be affecting. Below I have typed out my reasonings as to why Healyonar dominates each Songhai archetype mentioned:

• As midrange hai, Ziran wins because the classic gameplan of chipping the enemy down is negated by constant healing. This is in addition to spells (Immo, lucent, tempest, sunstrike) and minions (sunriser, lancer) that will consistently keep your board clear while having their own (and much bigger) chip damage (tempest, BtA, Vitriol, sunriser).
• As artifact, the insane amount of pings they have destroy anything you try to equip.
• As aggro, they can not only heal all the damage you dish out, but they can also clear your board with flexible spells and minions while developing theirs. They can play a decent aggro game alongside yours but with heals and fast draw.
• As burn, you lose right off the bat because they only need to heal themselves until you run out of steam.

I did not make this post primarily because of salt, I did it because I want to know what’s really going on. Do you guys think that Healyonar is up there at the moment with Fault and Wanderer (this comparison is assuming that all the decks are being played to their full potentials)?

Below I have linked a list of your typical Healyonar list to give you some perspective. I have seen in the tournament some people use sun sister stereope as a form of draw to great effect similar to (or better than) lantern fox with how many true strikes can be drawn (which are 1 mana) as a result of the amount of heal procs in the deck.

[gsvalhalla]

Its probably just being overshadowed by the Wanderer/Fault conversation. Since, if we say that the deck power rankings on Duelyst Central are somewhat fairly accurate. Then at least 5 out of top 20 decks are Wanderer/Fault decks, with possible another Wanderer deck that could crack into the rankings, if its power level is as good as others have said.

I would say its not quite on the level as those decks, since those decks are relatively unaffected by EMP. Whereas, Healyonar would suffer more from that. But it is just that EMP has fallen away because of those other decks of Fault and Wanderer being unaffected by EMP, that has allowed this deck to rise in power.

[humancalc]

Healonar definitely hates EMP.
Also hate minions with a ton of health. e.g. Obelysk.

Songhai is probably the easiest matchup since they generally have fragile minions.
I guess a deck with say Hamon, Zendo, EMP might work. Or try Arcanyst.

Healonar is more under the radar, most likely because of the style. Your life doesn’t drop as fast as against a burn deck. It slowly goes down while the Healonar player slowly recovers some health. The effect isn’t as visible. Not as visible as the dominant board state that Fault and Trials show when they win.
I would say Healonar is usually strong but never at the very top.

[halcyon98]

As a Healyonar player ever since I started playing Duelyst, I must have a few words on this matter. First and foremost, I fully recognize Healyonar as a respectable force in the meta, with the return of Lucent Beam and Blistering Skorn. However, I don’t think it is problematic in any way. In fact, it is rather unfair to call Healyonar “too good.”

The archetype never really received any support since the Unearthed Prophecy expansion, which is when we got Hallowed Ground tiles and Aperion’s Claim. Sure, we got Sunstrike, but that turned out to be a really good card in general, useable in many Lyonar decks such as Bond Argeon and not specifically Heal support. And now that 2 entire expansions have passed since Unearthed Prophecy, it’s quite noticeable how less support the archetype have received overall throughout Duelyst history.

All in all, I wouldn’t like it if people started viewing Healyonar the way they do Fault or Wanderer, as toxic decks that need to be brought back in line. It has been one of the least played decks in the competitive scene so far and has risen to prominence in recent days only because it’s able to withstand the absurd amounts of burst that frequent the meta. I would even argue that it is healthy for the game if Healyonar is strong, as it is a deck that promotes skill-based playing and positioning, a few things which top decks on current metas happen to alarmingly lack.

[alplod]

I would even argue that it is healthy for the game if Heal Zir’an is strong, as it is a deck that promotes skill-based playing and positioning, a few things which top decks on current metas happen to alarmingly lack.

I agree. Out of all Lyonar archetypes Healyonar is the most complex one, and very board based unlike many other complex decks from other factions.

Speaking of Hai, Artifact Hai with Geomancer is probably still the best bet against any version of Healyonar, even if it sports numerous pings. What one needs is to play kiting and attrition game. Against more agressive lists one can just remove any Spelljammer in play and wait until they run out of cards. Even with Trinity Oath the curve of agressive lists is very low, and Holy Immo doesn’t do any good if you are on the other side of the board.

Another artifact approach is prolonging games to use backstab OTK. Even Zir’An can do nothing against 14 sudden dmg from the back (Mask+Bangle) which can be even larger.

[atheistmantis]

I used to hate this archetype, and I had mixed feelings (and salt) about Holy Immolation - I’m still not sure if it’s not slightly op, but that’s another story - , but recently I started myself playing a heal-burn Lyo list and I frankly find it satisfying and balanced considering the meta, and the high presence of Wanderer lists around.
I wouldn’t say it’s too strong now, but it might slide in the controversy zone if they’d nerf Wanderer and/or the meta would change Imho.

[eurasianjay]

Arcanyst Songhai and Midrange Kaleos are actually the best decks against Ziran by some margin tbh.

[chaosgarden]

I’m working on an arcanyst deck in the same vain will post soon. All the healing is fun

[alplod]

Not so sure about Midrange, but Arcanyst Hai is probably good against aggro Zir’An variation at least. They usually don’t run dispell at all.

That’s always nice to see you around correcting my mistakes

[chaosgarden]

Here’s my work in progress any comments ? have 695 spirit atm

I know i should get another trinity oath , thinking of taking out primatic, and no spirit for another spelljammer hence fealty , which tbh i haven’t used effectively yet

[alplod]

All over the place. But it’s understandable since you’re low on spirit.

Fealty is probably bad since you won’t have lots of minions on board.

Maiden is just too slow.

Too few low cost spells for Arcanysts.

With the inherent inconsistency of your hybrid build Aethermaster can be good.

+3 atk/-3 health spell is versatile and cheap.

No way to reliably remove Wanderer. For slower heal builds martyrdom is a must.

Sundrop elixir fits the concept well.

All in all, too many 1 and 2-offs.

As a last remark, I’m currently testing this:

Not working well atm.

[chaosgarden]

yeah I know what you mean , haven’t had too many issues with spell procs though.
Instead of looking for one set strategy there are a few that work well.

I like the minion heavy aspect as it really helps drive the opponent back, have been doing 50/50 at the moment but haven’t broken to gold yet

Will see if I have the aether guys to swap for prismatic ,

and that spell to replace arclyte and the two fealty.

[improbableblob]

yes ziran is one of the best decks in the game atm, and I think it is one of the most cancerous decks to ever be created, up there with disruption faie from ancient bonds. anything you do can be punished, stay close and you get blown up lancer, back up and get punished by vitriol. bunch up and get destroyed by immo, sunrider and claim, spread out and you risk not having the damage to finsih the game.
It is certainly a skill intensive deck, but I would rather play against flash wanderer every game as that is a far more enjoyable experience for me, playing obelysks in saurian vaath meta was more fun than playing vs ziran.

[alplod]

Not sure that I approve of your tilt against Zir’an, but being skill intensive (unlike e.g. Vaath) is the ideal of the powerful board based deck for me.

[improbableblob]

yeah the skill required for the deck is probably the one saving grace, as there are only 2 players who play it a lot and at a high level (kieran and powinthekissa if you were wondering), but playing against either of those players is incredibly annoying for the reasons I outlined in my other post

[melkorita]

I’m a returning player (from rise of the bloodborn) and climbing gold atm so i’m still not updated on meta.

But the “problem” i always had with ziran, and healing in general is that that goes against the permises of the game “lightning fast matches”. Which imho shouldnt mean you just play aggro decks but you should have some kibd of “clock” on games if you know what i mean, that’s why i loathed kelaino when that was in the meta…

The less healing there is, the better, even though including some kind of control decks is healthy for the game, just to have more archetypes and playable competitive decks (speaking of which, i’m amazed by the job did by the developers, with the rotation gone, it looks like there are ton of fun competitive decks), i just wish they added control without healing

[halcyon98]

Zir’an has no late-game, so her games tend to end pretty fast.

[improbableblob]

ziran actually has an amazing lategame, mostly fueled by trinity oath being crazy strong, as she can combo well and not worry about running out of hand space.

[halcyon98]

But those combos typically aren’t strong enough to match what other decks have as late-game. Kind of explains why the stronger variations of Zir’an tend to be increasingly aggro-inclined.

[improbableblob]

it is as strong if not stronger a lategame as fault or wanderer, which is better than what most decks put out, yes most are aggro inclined, but that is not to say it can’t be strong later on. I would go as far to say that even when the ziran deck is aggro oriented, it is strongest in the lategame, at least when piloted well.