Can we talk about Daemonic Lure? (Abyssian skill)

[dewize]

Hey. Jumping in.
Abyssian does not need a rebalance. As some have already stated, there are tons of removals usable against them. Skorn, Pando, this, that, I can’t list them all.

Abyssians, like all factions, are tricky to deal with once they start to have the right set up. But, that’s the whole point. Abyssians can not win if you disrupt them early enough, or just everytime they throw a threat like Kelaino ( and not Keliano ) or Bloodmon, and so on. They are all easy to take out. But you have to. Abyssian will stomp you if you don’t manage to gain control before them. Or at least STOP them from getting it. And really, it’s easier than the other factions to stop them. Dispel one unit and they’re done. Destroy one, they’re done. Abyssian plays around key units or artifacts.

You’re a Vet dude, right ? You should actually be able to wreck them, even without Siphon Energy. Blast, Obelysks. More than enough. Get some Skorns. They’re generally speaking good anyway and will help you a lot deal with Wraithlings.

Anyway, remember this : you’re new. You can’t possibly understand perfectly how the balance works. And aside from SpellHai, everything is balanced. And sometimes, I even wonder if SpellHai is OP.

[oranos]

#BronzeProblems

[darkusnight]

Actually, I’m diamond.

[excogitator]

Perhaps you only find that card irritating due to the decks you play. I can see this card being a pain to play against as Lyonar midrange and Vetruvian, since these factions like big minions and have few relocation options. However, the card is very mediocre against faster decks with many small minions or decks that can get their minions back like Vanar. For example, I hate Blazehound since I personally like slower decks, but that card is very easy to deal with, and even benifitial towards you, if you are aggro. Just because it happens to beat the kind of decks that you happen to be playing doesn’t mean that it is overpowered.

In my opinion, the card is very balanced overall and offers a new, interesting type of removal. Maybe Abyssian just so happens to be a bad matchup against your particular deck. Try a few other things before rushing to conclusions.

[archer4]

I understand how you feel, as someone who plays Abyssian a lot; luring away an aymara healer or a nimbus can be game winning. To deal with lure specifically, avoid playing one large minion, and play multiple smaller minions. Also, try to play in the center of the board, so corner minions can reach you more easily. Against Abyssian in general, my advice is to play a strong early game and attempt to burst them down. It can be hard for Abyssian to deal with pax, falcius, and inner oasis (if you run it), or obelysk spam. Either don’t play aymara at all, or understand that playing it means the Abyssian player has to spend 2 mana that turn on luring it, which you can convert to an advantage, given you already have a stronger board and HP.

Probably one of the more subtle but important points to understand about Abyssian is that they will often keep lure in hand, which places a limit on their potential plays. It’s pretty bad early and midgame, for reasons others have mentioned.

Some tech choices:
-Rasha’s curse, hard counter to spectral blade and can reach pesky abyssals in the corner, or can push for damage
-Psychic conduit - amazing against kelaino (you can heal a lot for yourself, damage kelaino, and also bring kelaino in closer), also good against songhai
-Star’s fury - not really a tech choice, but is seeing some more use (based upon my anecdotal experiences), pushes for a LOT of damage that Abyssian often can’t handle. It’s an aggressive win condition.

[johnbob78]

The best way to beat abyss swarm is to manage swarm proactively and kill their infinite value generators. Their burst is nasty, but requires a board to exist. Rushing to control the game early, forcing them to expel answers from their hand eventually forcing them to use Rite will usually win you the game. The above strategy works very well against Lillithe (As someone who mainly plays her I’ve lost plenty a game that way) and at least marginally well against Cassyva. There’s not much else to say that the others haven’t. Good luck in the future (So long as you don’t beat me). Just like concede against me.

[Althur]

I think you should play the game a while longer and perhaps reach higher ranks before you can talk about balance.

Lure is perfectly fine. While versatile it’s also a situational removal as it doesn’t really remove the target, only stalls. Repulsor can be better at times and is a neutral option.

Perhaps it’s better to ask the community for help with countering tips rather than talking nerfs and balance. I’m sure your questions can be answered here.

Cheers.

[snowwy]

Hey, Vet main here. Vs Swarm Abyssian after siphon nerf, actually even before the Siphon nerf, allowing a bloodmoon to live more than a few turns is basically game losing. That card is an answer or die card. But killing every single wraithling swarm abyssian has basically renders their entire deck useless, literally. The whole deck is built around squeezing value out of wraithlings. If you are able to remove most of them to prevent her from getting absurd value, it’s basically your win. And they’re ultra vulnerable to AOE. But Bloodmoon is definitely an answer or die card, just hope you can reach it or dispel it (especially after the Siphon nerf).

Against Cassy (control abyssian basically). You have to attempt to win them in the early game and not have your board wiped. That archetype is basically a time bomb. If the game drags out long enough, you’re almost certain to die. Abyssian is the faction with the most late game threats and win cons in the game. Throughout the game, the shadow creeps will 100% buildup and with the lack of heals vets have, obliterate is almost a 100% kill when they draw it late into the game. They have stronger late game threats, and more of them eg. Spectral Revenant (only one seeing play atm), but Klaxon, Vorpal Reaver are huge as well. Ghost Azalea is also one of them with the insane burst damage late game. Reaper of the 9 moons can be game losing as well if you dont have a dispel and they manage to push in for a lot of face damage with it/ pull out a big drop. They can out live you with Kelaino too. And also refill their hand with Rite of the undervault (vets have relatively bad had retention, unless you;re dervish vet with first wish and whispers).

Basically as Vetruvians, try to stay at point blank range with them (because of the siphon nerf). Must kills are Kelaino, Reaper of the 9moons, bloodmoon, shadowdancers. Vs swarm abyssian, board wipe them. Vs Control cassy, stay close as well. Apply early pressure and try not to drag out games with them. Usually double to triple Aymara (and other threats like Diolatas, Nimbus, Sunsteels etc) can overwhelm them due to their pseudo removals. Dont try to outlast them cause you cant, try to out-tempo them.

[cassador]

I love how there are like 10 elobarate answers, and the only thing the op says is ‘I am not a bronze srcub, but Diamond ’

[raqyee]

Wow, jealous much?

OP, while we are at the subject of ranks. You need to be at least S rank to have sufficient game knowledge in order to be qualified to ask for actual nerfs. In the meantime, you are more than free to ask for the help in how to deal with the existing cards.

[cassador]

You got me, i admit it, i am just feeling bad that i am never going to reach that level of skill
That’s why i am trying to make him feel bad by pretending to know sth. about the game.

[chimpion]

Heya,

My opinions on the other side as a S-Rank Cass only main in terms of the matchup (not lure which has already been effectively discussed). To win as Vet you need and should have a better board presence and non-stop pressuring. Your hero has to always be fighting due to the nerf on Siphon.

You need to leverage your on board presence and snowball and keep the Abyssian’s board empty. Keep your more pro-active high impact cards (Pax, Falcius, Aymara) and ditch the slow cards such as Nimbus. Don’t keep second wish and if you do, kill the creature. Making dispels even better against Vet is not what you want to do especially as we don’t have many of them.

Our early removal is bad and pretty non-existent outside Lure and Banish (Swarm) - RIP Nightsorrow Assassin . Also Dark Transformation is terrible against Vet which is based on dying wish. Dying Wish and Wishes makes Cass BBS and Sphere extremely unreliable. If there is a board then those pings become much more effectively to enable trades.

Kelaino is annoying but in my opinion not worth dispelling. Whilst she gives massive sustain, my personal experience is that a 2/5 for 4 that gains some life just doesn’t cut it in terms of trying to stop the onslaught. Siphon is needed for Juggernaut, Klaxon (to push through damage), or priestess.

Most of my wins against Vet is when they get greedy and go for my face instead of my creatures when using second allowing me to get good trades with dispels. Also don’t play passive unless you are sure you can afford to.

Sure if you’re on 10-12 ish hp you could get wrecked by Spectral Rev/Azalea but by running away you’re gonna auto lose to it eventually anyway. There are somethings you just can’t afford to play around and need to fade. Saying that I’ve also won so many games to my one of skorn/lightbender so keep those in mind except when playing me

[darkusnight]

After reading a lot of the comments I decided to make a drastical change to my deck, now I’m better against Abyssian swarms, Daemonic Lure is still a problem but now not as big as before. Mostly because now I’m rushing with a lot of minions in early game and buffing them.