Balancing Magmar


#1

So I made this video with changes I think would help out Magmar without being OP.

Cards I go over:
Veteran Silithar
Buff health from 3 to 4

Wild Inceptor
Decrease cost to 3 OR change effect to hatch 2 eggs instead of 1

Morin-Khur
Decrease cost to 4 and reduce attack buff to +2

Dance of Dreams
Increase cost to 2 and change effect to draw a card when a friendly minion dies on your opponent’s next turn

Starhorn the Seeker
Change BBS to where only the player gets to draw a card

Explanations are in the video

What changes would you like to see to current Magmar cards?


#2

Those changes are all good insights.

Veteran Silithar nerf is definitely overdone. I would blame the unviability of Eggmar on the nerf of Veteran Silithar. Missing a playable 4 drop in the egg synergy lineup renders the whole Egg synergy archetype unplayable.

I think it is not Wild Inceptor who need to be changed, but the entire rebirth minion suite. Instantly hatching an egg - thus providing yourself a minion with rush and hence landing off favourable trades - is a huge tempo swing. The main problem of Eggmar is that there is not enough rebirth minions in Magmar faction - there are only 5 rebirth minions, 2 of them are cheap and the other 2 are too expensive, while the most crucial 4-mana spot Veteran Silithar is trash. We definitely need more new rebirth minions, and by the time we get good-enough midranged rebirth minions, Wild Inceptor would be fine.

The same argument goes for Morin-Kur. As soon as there are better rebirth minions, Morin-Kur would see play.

Your proposed change on Dance of Dreams is innovative. I like it a lot, because it could slow down enemy aggression, and hence create the space needed for growing minions or eggs. However, this card could still be not quite viable even after your proposed change, as it will most likely result in 2 playing 2 mana and draw a card.

Starhorn’s situation is tricky. 1 mana to draw a card seems a bit too strong. If CPG prints more card to synergize with opponent’s card draw, then Starhorn’s BBS could be justifiable.

It might be better to briefly introduce your proposed changes in words in this post rather than just posting a video link. Somebody might like to read off the screen than to listen.

Keep up the good work :slight_smile:


#3

I’m at work so I can underline this. I’d rather read it instead of entertain my colleagues… :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I made some card rework suggestions here:


While maybe a bit too salty overall (well - not that much) my suggestions for the changes still stand. Maybe some overlap with the video above…


#4

Every Magmar player will agree that Magmar needs clean up.

Egg Magmar is kinda a failure.It is supposed to be this thinking mans clever deck and it never really works like that.Yesterday I saw Megamogwai hit someone for 6 damage for lethal and last part of it was young silthar hit the enemy,Silithar turns into a egg and egg morph bring back young silthar hit again.That’s power of the rebirth Mechanic.Why does Veteran Silthar have three health? So it can die probably.

Honestly Vet Silthar probaly needs to be a 3 mana
4/2 more than 4 mana 4/4.Something like Vet Silthar run into enemy dies becomes a egg,You hit enemy with Morin Khur the vet silthar come back hits the enemy again dies,You use egg morph or Wild Inceptor bring back the Silthar again for another hit.Yes that’s the “dream sequence” and requires Morin Khur and Vet Silthar set up on board but key part is the Vet Silthar dying.An above poster might be right when maybe we just need more rebirth minions.

Morin Khur is probably the correct cost bad thing normally happens when you have it equip making it to easy would make Magmar overpowered.I think the threat of Chrysalis Burst after equipping it makes it good enough.Game over on 6 is big threat

Dreadnaught is a mistep as well,The ability is fine I once got 2 dreadnaught on the board and my eggs where 4/5.Maintaining board presence by having your eggs survive is a good thing.The problem is the ability happens way to late.It is ability for a artifact imo a 1 or 2 cost artifact that has dreadnaught effect would be amazing every rebirth minion would have a chance to stick.Okay it doesn’t come out early at least make it a sticky minion.Nimbus is 3/8 at 5 and Dreadnaught is 4/6 at 6 yes it has rebirth but the most important thing is that this minions survives and doesn’t stick when it comes out.Dreadnaught should be 5 cost or have more health.

So whats the dream cards

3 mana 3/2 with rebirth and flying

Deals with Magmar reach issue and fills in a rebirth hole.

The other dream card is

7 mana 5/5 draw 2 cards or restore 5 health.

Yes this is the old ancient of lore card but it more relevant to Magmar playstyle.A good late draw engine is what Magmar needs


#5

:heart_eyes: :heart_eyes: :heart_eyes:


#6

I’ll echo that we need more Egg/Rebirth Minions for the archetype to be viable.

Veteran Silithar needs some changes to make it viable, or other cards need to be toned down at the 4-mana slot. Changes to Veteran seem more likely than nerfing an entire slot. Either give it better stats or give it something else, I doubt they’ll reduce it to 3-cost as Kirabi suggested.

For Morin Khur, I think its cost is right but it should be an improved Claw, it should have 4 damage as well in my opinion. While the effect is powerful IF you can pull it off, the chance of that happening much is infinitesmal imho. Putting more damage on it would alleviate the cost somewhat, making it a slightly more expensive Adamantine Claw with an effect. Alternatively, since it’s the Egg Artefact: Go with Kirabi’s suggestion (though he did suggest it on a seperate artefact) and couple it with Dreadnaught’s effect instead of added damage.

I want to see more Dreadnaughts played because it’s such a cool looking card. Sadly it’s just not worth being played. I have no idea how to fix this.

I still think Grow on cardgain and regular Grow should be consolidated into one mechanic, having two of essentially the same mechanic is incredibly clunky. Either make all current Grow minions synergize with Starhorn and carddraw or give Starhorn a new BBS and make the grow on carddraw minions regular grow minions. I lean towards the latter, but we’ll see what they’ll do.


#7

Starhorn need a rework anyways.
And I’m fine with our 2 Grows: One fast (card draw) one slow (beginning on turn). What we need is more synergies and more Eggs on board.


#8

Updated the OP to include the changes I suggested. It was around 1AM when the video finally uploaded to YouTube, so I just kind of posted the link and passed out.

Everyone’s suggested changes also make quite a bit of sense, and everyone is definitely right about Rebirth just not having enough cards in the archtype in general. The video (and to an extent, this post), was just aimed at how to change the current cards Magmar already has. Adding more cards to the archtype would help quite a bit, if they were designed correctly.

I actually had a segment for Dreadnought, but the video was already pretty long and all the changes I could think of just felt off. He definitely needs something, because it’s not a card you would actually want to run, but it’s great if you get it from a Chrysalis Burst.

I think what would help is if we got more Rebirth minions with secondary effects. EX Rebirth and Grow, Rebirth and Flying, and I really want to say Rebirth and Provoke but that’s probably OP.


#9

Changing Starhorn’s BBS to trigger Grow buffs would be an interesting change to say the least. Or perhaps even change it to ‘Hatch an egg’. That might make some card irrelevant though.
Having Vet Silithar be a 3 Cost 4/2 I like the idea of.

On the point of Morin Khur; Wild Inceptor is a 4 Cost 3/3 ‘Hatch 1 egg’, meaning the ability is around 1-2 mana in cost, approximate given its stat reductions compared to baseline. Morin Khur is ‘+3 Attack, deal damage to hatch all eggs’. That means the effect on it is worth around also 2 mana (somewhat more than Inceptor’s effect), but we also have to smash our face into something.
Sure, it could hatch more than 1 egg, but the chances, given the meta, are very low. And yet, if the attack were dropped and the artefact cheapened, would it be too good? It feels like it’s on a balancing point. It’s too slow to make it too much a tempo swing with cards like chrysalis burst, yet oftentimes too expensive to really warrant using to hatch maybe 1 egg from a rebirth minion that managed to survive the early-game. The crux of the issue is indeed the lack of Rebirth minions, both in variety and value.


#10

Making Starhorn attached to grow would make him as bad Ziran or Sajj. The ultimate goal for a bbs is to be able to use them every turn.Ziran sucks because you have to injured minion which is 2 condition have before bbs is useful. Making the bbs grow or egg related does the same thing.

My suggestion would be adding a extra replace to current bbs.So both players draw card which is down side but starhorn can replace twice.

It would make Starhorn

1.The replace deck general
2.The Combo deck general

Replace has downside of giving up something so wouldn’t make Starhorn super OP except maybe with Mechs which need a redesign anyways.

In short Both players draw one card,Starhorn replace twice(actually it is just extra one because you can replace once a turn anyways)


#11

That’s a super-fresh idea (I can’t remember anyone had a idea like that in the past) and on the first sight I like it much! (I don’t know if it would work because the replace-mechanic is kinda bugged right now. Don’t you have the same feeling as me that you almost always get a replaced card back one turn later?)
And… yeah… Mech. I don’t think the Devs would worry - they try to push Mech since I play the game. :joy:

It would also fit the “The Seeker”-thing. I don’t care about the lore but I know many people do!


#12

100% agree with that. Would LOVE to see this implemented!


#13

Personally i think Magmar is fine in terms of overall power level but i think reworking the available options for Egg based decks would be a good thing to do because as of now the archetype is worthless.

The nerf to Veteran Silithar is just a mess. If they had left it on 4/5 he wouldn’t really combo well with all the “hatch an egg” cards but he would at least be very sticky and might even be an alternative for Sun Steeldefenders in some more egg focused midrange builds.

The other way would have been to make him something like 6-2 rebirth so that you can smash him into the opponents General, hatch the egg and repeat. With 4/3 though he isn’t sticky, can’t reliably suicide himself into opponents generals because his life is just 1 point to high and even if you manage to pull of something like that, its just a measly 4 damage. Hardly worth the mana and effort, not to mention that it needs at least 1 other card to work.

Regarding Inceptor and Dreadnaught I think the mana cost is the key. Putting inceptor in the 4 mana slot pretty much killed the card for everything but absolutely dedicated rebirth decks because the slot is so contested that you can’t afford to run a usually worthless combocard in it, if he had decent stats for his costs it might be ok but 3/3 for 4 is garbage and the ability highly situational.

Dreadnaught is a similar case, as Kirabi already pointed out, the effect is really nice but at 6 mana it comes far to late to really matter. He should be in the 3 or 4 mana region with stats adjusted accordingly.

Cool thing would be Dreadnaught and Silithar both in the 4 mana region, Silithar with aggressive stats like 6/2 and dreadnaught something like 3/4 or 3/5. That way Rebirth Magmar had the options to do both, suiciding its minions into stuff and then hatch them to repeat AND at the same time make more durable eggs to increase the chances of them to survive an opponents turn or at least require more ressources to be cleaned. And both options would be availabe from turn 2 onwards. That way rebirth might actually be a strong archetype.


#14

I agree 100% agree with you on starhorn getting an extra replace, I was thinking the same thing! Starhorn is weak, replace decks are weak, why not kill 2 birds with one stone? So glad to see someone else has the same idea!


#15

Somehow I feel the revised egg mechanism is a bit against the flavour of the faction.

I always see the identity of magmar being slow and strong, or powerful through time, etc etc. giving hatched miniona rush or even die/hatch/die/hatch multiple cycles during a turn just feels a bit… Off. It almost feel like what Songhai will be doing (multiple card combos involving rush/reactivate etc). However historically magmar was played as a combo class too, so maybe it’s okay.

I’m not trying to criticize the change. Maybe slow mechanisms just won’t work so it has to be changed.


#16

Magmar has

1.Rebirth
2. Grow 1 the original grow every turn your minion grows bigger
3.Grow 2. Every time your enemy draws a card your minion grows
3.Grow 3.Any time anyone draws a card your minion grows
4.Self damage/damage other minions
5.Aoe/Rush
6.Buff/Ramp/Big attack minion

All minions fall in these categories.There is a reason I listed them like this it because reality Magmar can get a little boring because they have multiple mechanics that work the same.The egg change imo was to bring about a different style of game play. How many a decks types can you really build

1.Ramp
2.Self damage twin fangs Amp
3.Egg
4.Aggro/Rush
5.Artifact
6.Pet/Flood/Zoo
7.Fractal/Combo deck

The point is when you actually go to build these decks most of them are build in the same exact way and played the same drop high quality minion,drop high quality minion on curve,drop high quality minion on curve.While that is my favorite playing style I like playing the biggest monster.It would be fun if faction can go different noticable direction.

The great thing about egg change it is clear different path than the drop big stuff route.I don’t need every Magmar playing to be tier 1 capable but eggmar ,ramp magmar /damage proc magmar need to work because they are clearly different styles.Just my opinion


#17

Magmar is certainly not weak in the meta right now. However, Shim’zar did not do much for Magmar in terms of expanding its play styles. Sure, there are a few strong units here or there as well as some pretty darn good spells, but overall, It has been pretty underwhelming. Right now, meta Magmar decks are all about Aggro. They usually aim to play as many units as they can in the earlygame and use Mandrake or Makantor to make sure the opponent doesn’t recover in the lategame. Maybe, a Magmar rework would involve toning down this aspect of Magmar and focusing more on eggs, grow, or control.

My ideas:

Veteran Silithar: Way too overnerfed. Perhaps a 4/4 or even the original 4/5 would still work.

Wild Inceptor: Why is this a 4 drop? It could be a perfectly fine 3 drop since its ability, while powerful, requires something with a specific keyword to be drawn, played, and die.

Dreadnought: In my opinion, this is the most disappointing unit out there since its effect seems so insignificant compared to the pixel art. I would stick its effect on a smaller unit and give it a new one. Perhaps:

6 mana
4/9
Grow: +1/+1
Dying wish: Summon a Magmar minion with cost equal to this minion’s attack.

This would give Magmar a sticky lategame minion other than Silithar Elder and Synergize with Moloki Huntress and attack buffs. Otherwise, something big like this fits the sprite much better than the frail (for its cost) tech unit that it is right now.

Flaming Stampede: By far the worst 8 mana spell printed this expansion. Koan of Horns, at least, has an interesting effect. This, however, is just a big tempest that has a small, hard to use, upside. I understand that, flavour-wise, this is supposed to represent a mass extinction, but this is just a weird way of doing it. My suggestion:

Mass extinction:
8 mana
Deal 5 damage to non-egg minions. Summon a copy of each surviving minion.

This keeps the current egg synergy while also punishing aggro and encouraging you to play bigger minions. This would also fit with the Mass extincition theme since species that survive these events often prosper due to lack of competition and new niches.

Taygete: This used to be an amazing unit since it was great at both dealing damage and dealing with aggro. The 5 health and pseudo frenzy allowed it to make short work of many earlygame threats, while the effective 5 attack also let it threaten the life total of the opponent general. Now, this unit is still good, but lacks the controling capabilities. Now, it is far too frail to win back the earlygame and is mainly used by Aggro to push or general damage. I would rather this be a 2/5, 1/6, or even a 1/5 since the extra health was what made is so good at dealing with earlygame.

Visionar: The stats for this minion are just too ackward for it to see play. On average, this thing is a 7/4 that gains +2/+2 by the time it gets to attack on your next turn (+1/+1 if you do not use Starhorn’s BBS and +3/+3 if you do). As such, you are paying 1 extra mana for a Grimrock with +3 attack. This is hardly a good deal. If it has more defensive stats, like starting as a 5/4, I would be much more willing to play with it.


#18

3 diamond games lost this week with “chrysalis burst” + "Morin-Khur"
Random creatures probably a 8/8 and 5/5 htting me without counter
and another 3 games lost vs “Nature’s confluence” with pets like 2/5 with celerity

We should stop this random cards that can make you win or lose at random. 0 tactic


#19

This would be an interesting direction for Starhorn. Probably the best thing they could do without reworking him entirely.


#20

Magmar is the faction I have the most experience/wins with and I completely agree that it feels that magmar was largely cheated out of the very hyped egg archetype we were supposed to receive particularly since the nerfs to both vet silithar and Taygete basically screwed over magmar in their most important mana slot. I also agree that the nerf to vet silithar is a massive reason as to why egg decks arent that great! I’d of been okay with a change to one but not both

If I had my own way I’d love to see Vet Silithar return to being 4/5, to get any egg synergy off with it currently it has to live a turn - a hard task with only 3 health

Wild inceptor I’d like to see be either reduced to costing 3 mana or if it remains at 4 also be a rebirth minion (it’s death animation has to turning to an egg which cracks open what do you mean this isn’t a rebirth already)

Dreadnought I’d like to see its ability give the +2 +2 buff to other rebirth minions when summoned like a giant mirkblood devourer for rebirth minions

I’d also like to see esports burst have its mana cost made higher but also be summon able the same way that nature’s confluence is grouped in a square simply because I hate that the rng nature of the card can be threatening

Overall these are just my opinions and thoughts I’ve had about changing these cards, I’m no dev just an ordinary mag player who is mostly just magsad when looking at rebirth minions. Praise be to the saviors makantor + mandrake