Balance of Forcefield


#1

What if forcefield functioned like divine shield from HS? Instead of the way it currently works where it resets each turn, why not make it a one time use?
I think there’s no need for the keyword to be that strong and this small change will balance it out.
I’d hate to compare Duelyst to HS despite their similarities but if HS nailed it with their divine shield mechanic, why fix what’s not broken?!

What do you guys think? Is it fine as it is or is this change actually a good idea?


#2

Like you said, why fix what’s not broken? I think Forcefield is fine as it is. Your suggestion would need a rework of all Forcefield cards, since they would be far too weak with this change.


#3

It’s easy to call a keyword strong in a vacuum without looking at the actual game examples. Forcefield is strong but minions are balanced in a way to compensate for it. There currently isn’t a single too strong Forcefield minion, if anything they’re underwhelming. Only decent Forcefield minion is Sunsteel and even he is run in a single deck.

Unlike something like Rush, Forcefield isn’t oppressive, unfun and doesn’t limit card design. All it takes is stat adjustment to balance the minions with the keyword.

Also, why not link this thread as it provides more information about your opinions on Forcefield, one of them being how you think Sunsteel is one of the most powerful cards because it wins you the games in low tier games? Might as well, right? Since that discussion is probably what encouraged you to make the thread in the first place.


#4

Forcefield would be disgustingly overpowered in hearthstone, but since you can (almost) always use your general to pop the bubble it’s usually fairly managable in duelyst.


#5

The only problem that can happen with Forcefielf, is a Spell/minion that give Forcefield to an ally minions.

Grove Lion is pretty balanced for it’s effect on the general.


#6

I like how you make these passive aggressive comments all the time, it really brings out your personality.

In my opinion Forcefield feels stronger than it should be.
Yes, I think Sunsteel is a very strong card, given you always have to use up resources to deal with it. No, I don’t think It’s “one of the most powerful cards”. What makes it as powerful as it is, is the Forcefield which allows free value, the mechanic itself is an issue the way I see it.

My experience with my smurf account only brought this to my attention since, like you have mentioned before, you don’t see them that often.
Once again I want to highlight that the potential of, as you would call them, “decent” stated Forcefield minions is what worries me. Just look at what a 2/2 Forcfield minion spawned from Kron can do.

I do agree with your statement about Rush. I think the mechanic itself should stay as it is but perhaps the cards with the keyword themselves should be designed differently, with lower stats, or more drawbacks.

For the record, I’ve been giving much thought to the topic lately and the discussion you mentioned was not what encouraged me to make the thread. I simply want to hear other people’s opinion and perhaps come to some conclusion and peace of mind.

I would appreciate it if you won’t address my posts/comments with such a passive aggressive tone.

Regards,
Althur ;3


#7

I’m all for jumping on the “Lets tsk tsk at Raqyee again” bandwagon, but in this instance I dont think he was being passive aggressive at all. I actually agree with his comments completely.

Myself, I also think forcefield is balanced, thanks to the heavier stat nerfs compared to HS’s divine shield minions.

Sunsteel is a strong card, but it contends with a lot of other competitors in the 4 mana slot. And honestly I don’t see it on the board very often compared with most cards.

If forcefields were super strong, we’d be seeing them at Kron-rate frequency in decks.

Psyrus


#8

As of now we only have a handful of Forcefield minions available to us.
Like you said the 4 drop slot is contested with other, mainly faction cards and so Sunsteel doesn’t see as much play.
I’m trying to address the bigger picture here.
Once upon a time we didn’t have many dying wish minions.
Today we have several strong, competitive lists running dying wish.
I fear that forcefield is gonna break the meta at one point or another.

Once again, it is only my subjective opinion at the moment, I could totally be wrong and perhaps it’s just me who feels this way. But maybe, maybe I have a point here which I’d like others to see.


#9

The only reason the minion from Kron is strong is the cost.When you actually have to pay for the cost it isn’t that strong that’s why you don’t see Sapphire Seer on the ladder.

In the case forcefield just like range, grow, deathwatch every minion that get that tag is undercosted stat wise.“Feels strong” is not accurate measurement. Usage actual gives you a better picture the only force field minion that is use Sunsteel which is solid on curve but Magmar can cheat it out.No other force field minion is actually used and Sunsteel is a well balanced minion.If the game slows down then Exxun will be played again and it will be in Magmar again because Magmar can cheat out at 5 .

Forcefield is fine CPG have been doing a good job of careful statting the ff minions.When CPG makes a 1/1 force field rebirth minion then maybe we can complain


#10

Well I suppose only time will tell.
Maybe after all I’m just too biased against it, seeing as most people agree it’s balanced as it is. I guess that answers my question.

No further complaint from me then.


#11

In HS this keyword would be broken. But in duelyst:

  1. You have general attack to break forcefield
  2. Board -you can run away and place minions where it will be impossible to get value with forcefild

Also there are no OP forcefield minons right now, but we have one of the most balanced card in the game - sunsteel defender. And if you want to compare 1 ability with other you should note all of them like this:
Ranged vs Forcefield = Ranged better because at least you can’t run away
Blast vs Forcefield = Blast better because hard to run away and restricts opponent’s placement.
this is compare of power, but in design i think Forcefield is better than both of them


#12

I’m not being passive-aggressive, but feel free to think I am. After all, mods consider all my posts to be passive-aggressive, cynical, rude or whatever so it doesn’t really matter in the end. Anyway, I don’t see how me linking your existing thoughts on the matter is bad for discussion, even if they didn’t encourage you to make the thread they do provide more content relevant to the discussion.

Would you mind elaborate on that? Because the card gets free value only when it lives through the enemy turn which can then proceed to do damage and technically take no damage themselves. And such cards are balanced in way so when something like that happen they’re still not over the top, that’s why they changed the previous sunsteel from what it was to now.[quote=“Althur, post:6, topic:4297”]

Just look at what a 2/2 Forcfield minion spawned from Kron can do.
[/quote]
Forcefield and Rush are strongest keywords in the vacuum. It’s no wonder those are the strongest prisoners as all of them share the same stats so it’s only natural the ones with the best abilities will prevail. That’s why people assumed prisoners will have the same keywords as Pandora’s wolves to compensate for the variance in power between keywords. Problem there is not the Forcefield, or for that matter Rush as a mechanic itself. Problem is how they’re strong keywords yet tokens are not balanced in a way to compensate for it but are all the same.

If we are going to look at it that way, then it doesn’t matter what we’re talking about. Literally any mechanic can be considered problematic because in the future there is a chance the game will introduce stronger cards with said mechanic. It’s not about looking at bigger picture as much it’s about being paranoid overly suspicious :disappointed_relieved:

Sure the mechanic is strong in the vacuum and you could argue how there is bigger chance of it breaking the meta at some point compared to some other mechanics. But in the end, just like DW, enemy has an entire turn to deal with the threat so it will always be at least manageable. Luckily CPG is getting better when it comes to dealing with broken cards so I’m not worried. For reference, fact that Kron is considered to be the strongest card is actually an amazing thing.

Regards,
raqyee ^w^


#13

I was referring to your tone, it seems you hear that a lot after all.
You are clearly an intelligent person with a lot of experience and valuable opinions. I just don’t like how you debate so aggressively that’s all.

Forcefield allows a minion to trade for free or deal free face damage. Sunsteel as an example can either go 2 for 1 and still deal 4 face damage or eat up removal. In both cases, but especially when you do not have removal, you lose in tempo, which can and will lose you the game in some cases. Of course you can run away and stall until you can deal with it but then most things you summon will die for free.

I think Forcefield is stronger than it should be but as it seems the majority doesn’t agree and I made my peace with it.

Rather than paranoid or suspicious, I would consider myself careful.

You do have a good point with CPG getting better with balancing. Especially after the reveal of Nightwatcher, which is a direct tool to deal with Rush, to which you already expressed much dislike before, I now have more confidence in the future. For when and if Forcefield will get too dominant, they can simply release a card which can directly counter it.
I really like this kind of solution as a balance option, really seems elegant and reasonable.


#14

I re-read my post and couldn’t find anything that would imply my tone is aggressive. Would you mind PM-ing me the specific parts of my posts which seemed like that to you so I can improve on my behavior as this is no place to discuss it. Thanks.

True, but the keyword here is “can”. Enemy hitting the forcefield and then trading two minions into your sunsteel, both of which die is pretty much the best case scenario. If you want to evaluate cards properly you can’t judge them solely by the best case scenario. There is plenty of well stated minions that can 2 for 1, first one coming to mind being shieldmaster, which is also a 4 drop and is generally considered to be a better card than sunsteel. Dancing blades is another one, a card that often even goes 3 for 1 and there’s plenty more to go around. Sunsteel isn’t some exclusive card in the game that trades extremely well. And when it comes to not having the removal for it and the card carrying the game, it’s again hardly the only card that does that.


#15

Can forcefield just reset at the beginning of the users turn? Instead of being able to hit something for free during its turn and just reset when its the opposing turn… It would make more sense that way from what I feel


#16