So how reliable is Bagoum’s tier list? I’ve heard people say that it’s horrible and biased, and have met people that swear by it. Does this game even have a stable tier list?
Tier lists are opinions,If you ask me
Cass,Vaath,Argeon,Faie are Tier 1,Starhorn, Lilthe and Reva are Tier 2 .
It will vary ,Bagoum list reliable enough to give you a general sense of the meta.It could have some thing more scientific though.I think MMR host( I can’t remember if i that is what is called) might give information that you need if you don’t trust bagoum.
I’m in the “take it with a grain of salt” camp. Bagoum is primarily handled by Eldynamite, and very transparently is an attempt to make something resembling the homepage of the pro Blizzard team Tempo Storm- and that’s really where the metagame model falls apart. The tier lists provided are filled with redundancies, hyperbole, and frankly, ass-backward tier logic.
Rather, a tier-list, as I am familiar with it for MtG, fighting games etc. isn’t an instruction manual on “what to play”- so much as quick, accessible data backed hitlist of what to expect in competitive play. For that reason, tier lists are usually reductive and present information based on usage stats. IE, “Tier 1” describes the most popular decks, and the reasons for their popularity and power. “Tier 2” describes decks competitive with T1 decks to look out for, and describes why they are less popular.
Bagoum currently describes 4 “Tier S” decks, (if that equates to Tier 0, you’re describing 4 absolutely broken strategies that don’t somehow balance one another out. IE, 4 different flavors of Cawblade/Affinity level domination.)
There are 3 “Tier A” decks, which leaves me boggled about how there can be 4 Tier S (Tier 0 is always reserved for ban-worthy offensive domination) decks, and only 3 Tier A decks, (Tier 1 describing the face of a meta.)
Then, there are a whopping 7 “Tier B” (assuming it equates “Tier 2”.) That’s generally the same number of archetypes analyzed on an entire MtG tierlist, and Duelyst really doesn’t give the same variety in deckbuilding for tech that Magic does.
Beyond that, “Tier C” and below are fluff to make sure that every other General gets a position on the list- and that’s super misleading for a new player, or even an experienced player who wants to try building and pushing a particular General. The place for deck theory is in discussion threads or articles involving theorycraft.
I guess that’s about it. Bagoum is a nice site since DuelystDB went down, but the theorycraft and tier logic is loopy on the best of days, occasionally just fallacious. Not sure Eldynamite is looking for feedback anyways.
I’m kinda interested to know where all the data comes from to create the tier-list. I know it says it mainly gears towards the S-rank meta, but how does it gather all that data to know which decks (and cards in those decks) belong at the top? Or is it just all opinion based?
To me, Tier is about players, not decks
I would love to have that list of names.
Well. There is that old adage about knives and gunfights. Of course, if the gun guy is an idiot, and the knife guy a ducking god with a knife, then the knife guy wins. I agree, tier lists aren’t the be all and all. However, if the two opponents are equally skilled in their respective weapons, the the gun guy wins almost all the time. Tier lists are made to represent the relative INHERENT strengths of the contained, not the strengths of the players. This is why I believe in tier lists.
That’s sortof counter to the point. Tier lists are supposed to inform sideboard/teching/variant choices primarily, and if you’re going to build your own rig- it informs certain parameters that have to be met. There are plenty of ace rogue deck builders in MtG, but they use the tier list to let them know just how much is reasonable to get away with when building, and what decks to stress test against. Hell, alot of the best decks in Magic took the better part of a season to figure out, and were difficult to pilot- and Magic has a ravenous following of weekly tourney circuits with published results. If Duelyst implemented proper statistics-oriented tier lists, the act of brewing itself would become more reasonable and accessible.
I’m used to the old league of legends style tier lists that were all opinion and no substance so I pretty much ignore them.
edit: That said, liquidhearth used to have an interesting set of deck rankings before it died where they would survey 10 or so pro players who would rank decks from a list and they’d average out those ranks to form an overall ranked list for ladder play. I used to follow that and it worked well. But liquidhearth died years ago and other modern websites for hearthstone are a lot more data driven and do some pretty amazing stuff.
Duelyst doesn’t have that though so I don’t pay much attention to lists.
s-rank #1 was contested last month between solafid (maranudes) and minmaxer who ran faie and reva respectively, neither of which were classed as top tier on bagoum. nuff said.
I wouldn’t put too much stock in tier lists in general, they’re a good starting point but the duelyst community is small enough that there aren’t enough people who are good at the game to produce good decklists. I think that the meta in duelyst is never completely explored (unlike in hearthstone, for example, where everyone is playing some small variant of fotm decks).
I really don’t get the point. There’s a person (or a group of them - I don’t know) that put a lot of afford in giving the community every month an insight of how the meta changes and some ideas of decks that are good and not so good at the moment.
Is it really that important whether the lists are 100% correct or just 70%?
Tier lists are always subjective and mirror the thoughts of the author. People here are talking about them as they have the right to get the truth and nothing but the truth. And instead of being thankful about the guys that put so much afford in the lists (being correct or not) people are ranting about them.
I think some people here should better show some gratefulness and respect to the work others do for them (finally) or make their own website, tier lists, deck builders… if they think they can do it better.
Bagoum’s tier list is inaccurate and biased. I proved this in December when I got top 10 on BryanMMR and top 15 on the official S-rank list playing almost exclusively Combo Sajj. There wasn’t a single Magmar main rated higher than me on BryanMMR, even though the tier list ranks Vaath as Tier S and Combo Sajj as bottom tier. I can’t see how someone would be foolish enough to overlook that even Sajj is better than Vaath currently! And then people go around saying that Vetruvian is the worst faction and that Magmar is strong
It almost feels like tier lists are more about popularity than strength. Just play what makes you happy kids!
i appreciate the work put into the site. i’d appreciate it more if the decks posted were backed up with some actual reports of their success, i.e. tournament wins or s-rank winrate/position achieved and more still if there wasn’t so much importance placed on exaggerating power differences between generals, which again isn’t supported with any data and seems to be generally contradicted by what data is available.
in a way, data would actually make it worse.
– it would increase confidence in the list without necessarily adding increasing the reports accuracy.
As @paralykeet said, tier lists in card games don’t really tell you much more than what to expect out of a certain general i.e, If you see Vaath there are about three common archetypes that they might be running and you can play around that, but most of the time the game comes down to the skill of the players, and the draws they get.
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