Archetype Inquiries - Arcanyst Hai

[alplod]

The purpose of this thread (and maybe a couple more) is to answer the following questions:

1. Is the archetype viable? What makes it strong/weak?
2. If you consider it being on the weaker side, what could make it better? What cards will you buff/nerf/design to make it better?
3. Should it be better at all? Is it dangerous to make it viable for the meta sake?

In this topic I also encourage you to discuss other factions’ arcanyst builds and compare them to Hai if you’d like to. Decklists are also welcome if they add value to the discussion.

I’m going to ask the similar questions about some more archetypes I’m interested in. No schedule whatsoever.

My own thoughts will be posted later.

Let’s make every archetype viable together!

Previous Talks: Archetype Inquiries - Swarm Abyssian

[alplod]

Well, i see there’s so much arcanyst hai enthusiasts in the forums, so, probably I’ll at least answer my own questions.

Arcanyst hai seems weak for some reason, much weaker than Kara and Lilithe arcanysts. As I see, the reason for arcahai is the usual Hai problem - inability to comeback - with an added arcanyst bonus problem - weak earlygame.

Really, if you go all in arcanysts your 2 mana choices are all 1/3 (and 1 1/2) which doesn’t help to gain tempo. Abyssian can hold on up to lategame with their excessive removal, then play Deathknell to regain all arcanysts lost, while Kara can easily vomit swarms of them and buff simultaneosly with her BBS, which often helps to get ahead. Hai has none of these mechanics and bond sucks in Hai, cause it’s hard to get something to stick.

As I don’t see this archetype as cancerous, I think that any support is just and fair.

What could be done?

a) Maybe some stronger earlygame options.

Summary

I know, hai minions tend to not be statsticks, arcanysts are also rather weak due to some complicated (or not) mechanics added to each of them, but Hai has one minion that is different from others - powerful and cheap 8/8 with a built in drawback.

So, I consider several options:

2 mana 3/3 arcanyst
Bond: Deal 2 dmg to your general.

3 mana 4/4 arcanyst
Teleport to a random space at the start of your turn.

3 mana 3/5 arcanyst
At the end of your turn deal as much dmg to your general as you have mana left.

I know these may not seem to much “arcanystic”, but they may help. You may switch stats and and abilities arbitrarily, I just presented some options to consider.

b) Maybe some arcanyst-based healing.

Summary

I don’t quite know in what form the healing could be useful, but it should probably be spellproc based, or otherwise spellbased. We have Mantra, which is hard to use in “fair” arcanyst builds, and 4WM, which is very widely used in different Hai builds as THE ONLY infaction card which provides healing.

We may thus consider some options:

3 mana 2/3 arcanyst
Bond?: Put a Mana Thirst in your action bar.

Mana Thirst
spell 0 mana
Lose all your mana. Regain 2 health for each mana lost.

OR

put a Name Unknown in your action bar.

Name Unknown
0 mana spell
Regain 3 health.

Maybe someone can come up with something better? Or do you think I misanalysed the problem, and the real problem is smth else? Feel free to discuss.

[phoenixtoasches]

Alright, here we go.

1. Is the archetype viable?

   • Absolutely, I don’t think that’s even a question.

2. What makes it strong and what makes it weak?

   • I think the thing that separates an arcanyst deck in Songhai from other Arcanyst decks in Vanar or Abyssian is the amount of burst it has which is something that is a general strategy found in the faction. You have cards like Inner Focus/Assassination Protocol that allows you to not only spell proc cards like Magi/Owlbeast/Avatar/Conjurer, but can also activate cards like Bandit/Dusk Rigger allowing for more spell procs or a Katara for removal all in one turn which can be devastating.
   • What makes the Songhai arcanyst variant weak is an inability to comeback from a losing board or to remain consist over a long game. In Vanar, you have so many ways to remain in control with the amount of removal they have which doubles as cheap spell procs and Abyssian has enough early to mid-game removal to push into late game where their arcanyst minions can really shine although with the advent of Gate I think that arcanyst in abyssian is dead at the moment.

3. If you consider in the weaker side, what could make it better?

   • I think that is a really tough problem to be able to answer without whatever buffs you give to arcanyst archetype spilling over into other variants of Songhai. When I said that the greatest sticking point of arcanyst Songhai was its burst potential, that is true for almost every Songhai archetype and so trying to cover up that weakness would majorly impact Songhai as a faction although I think the real question you should be asking is, is it necessary for arcanyst Songhai to receive a buff?

4. Should it be better at all? Is it dangerous to make it viable for meta sake?

   • Like I said before, I don’t think the question is whether it should be better or worse, it’s should it even be considered for a buff? Every faction has some sort of niche that it fills: Magmar is the beatstick faction, Vanar is the spell/removal faction, Lyonar is the control, Abyssian is the late game control faction, Vet is the mid-game control faction (might be wrong here actually) and Songhai is the early game burst faction. Right now, the way arcanyst Songhai plays is very much in line with this niche and thus its weaknesses are also in line with the faction’s weaknesses. If you attempt to buff and do it improperly you will be creating a situation where it is not abiding by the status quo resulting in what Magmar was pre patch 1.93 with an absolutely perfect curve game, too OP.

5. Review of @alplod’s proposed buffs:

   • 2 mana 3/3: I don’t really understand the point of this minion and if anything it seems detrimental. Please correct my opinions about this minion
   • 3 mana 4/4: Not that this ability is particular bad, but if we really want to get some support for this archetype, RNG minions is not the way to go. Also the stats are way too high.
   • 3 mana 3/5: The stats seem fair for the ability, but this is too similar to Hamon Bladeseeker and worse in that respect since Hamon gives you 8/8 for only 2 damage. Furthermore the ability just seems irrelevant to arcanyst.
   • Mana Thirst: Way too strong, allows for a complete heal in the late game. Even if this was a Lyonar card it would still be too OP, I mean you could literally heal for 19 points!
   • Name Unknown: Reasonable I suppose, maybe lower the heal to 2 and allow you to heal anything on the board is more reasonable, but that 0 mana cost is very suspicious and should maybe upped to 1 at least. I would actually say to just let the bond minion give you this card and ignore Mana Thirst.

Side Note: @eurasianjay, that decklist looks very nice, I wouldn’t mind seeing some replays as well as information on how to pilot it.

[whyb0t]

I don’t consider it to be very good, but a lot of people love it. It doesn’t feel like Songhai has the removal package necessary to use it well

[tsevech]

Ehy, I’m also very interested into Arca Hai! Unfortunately it’s an archetype which I don’t know well, but I plan to experiment with it soon!

I think it’s potentially strong, I have lost to it a few times, especially when those Owlbeasts go out of control… But I think it has troubles surviving aggressive decks, because Songhai removals are not as good as Vanar and Abyssian.

[baharoth]

Is the archetype viable? What makes it strong/weak?

Yes it is. Bascially infinite value resulting in nearly unbeatable boardstates along with strong tempo plays. What worked for Vanar in AB also works for Songhai right now.

If you consider it being on the weaker side, what could make it better? What cards will you buff/nerf/design to make it better?

The archetype got the card it needed in UP. Eternity painter is exactly the kind of comeback card the deck needed for constant performance. Getting Shidai probably didn’t hurt either though i still consider Reva the better choice.

Should it be better at all? Is it dangerous to make it viable for the meta sake?

Arcanysts, to be more precise Owlbeast, is dangerous balance wise. It’s ability to escalate any given board into obscurity in a single turn can lead to bullshit metas like we had in AB. So no, it shouldn’t get more buffs.

[eurasianjay]

Courtesy of Alpha Century, this is also something close to what Mezz and some other players in S have been messing with, most notably the obvious core that is OwlBeast and a new addition in Dust Rigger, wether it be simply for the card draw, or the cheap spellproc synergy.

I’ll add that imo Arc Songhai is very powerful but often missbuilt, as people go too all in on certain cards and aspects instead of just sticking Owlneasts into their already good aggressive spellhai decks.

[terrarius]

That deck is very fun to play and is quite strong…thanks for the list.

[phoenixtoasches]

Finished my response.