Duelyst Forums

Anyone else dissapointed with this games devolpment?

#18

The entire point of control decks is to play passive in the early and survive until they can play their wincon and obviously win. If their wincon doesn’t have enough impact to win at this point, even when they are behind to some degree, then its not a wincon, its trash. Reaching 8 Mana in a tempo heavy fast paced game like duelyst is certainly not an easy thing to do, especially not as player one. So if your opponent gets to play his wincon, which doesn’t even win on the spot in case of variax or death knell and you still can’t manage to finish him off, then in all honesty, it’s an absolutely deserved victory for him.

His game plan worked out and won him the game, that’s how it’s supposed to be. The fact that you were ahead on board/life at this point means little, given your opponent played an lategame focused control deck it would mean complete failure on your end if he was equal/ahead in the early/mid game.

However, given how close the game was, you should really ask yourself if you couldn’t have done 6 more damage if you had played differently instead of just blaming Death Knell for your loss. For example, what if you hadn’t used that saberspine earlier to kill a Manaforger or what ever? You could have saved it as a finishing tool but you didn’t, was the minion you killed really that important?

#19

This is an unfortunate example of the game’s increasing tendency to obscure/obfuscate feedback. Removing an early Manaforger with a Tiger that lives as a 3/1 so that the other player cannot get discounted spells should almost always be the right play. Using that Tiger to go face for 3 damage should often be the worse play. Instead the feedback received is go face or lose to some unkillable board generator that generates higher value for the more opponent minions you destroy, so next feedback is don’t remove enemy minions because they’ll all be revived come 8 mana.

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#20

If he had used the tiger to deny the early mana tile/get cheap spells early on it would have been the correct play, but judging by his statement, this wasn’t the case

Also i am not saying it was the wrong play, i can’t tell since i haven’t seen the game. But if my opponent wins the game on 6 life i should always check twice if i really had no way to do 6 more damage during that game before i call some niche lategame card broken.

And yes, when you play against a deck with more lategame power then your own then the most vital ressource you have to account for is the enemy life total. This has nothing to do with “unkillable board generators” which Death Knell isn’t, this is simple strategy and Matchup knowledge.

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#21

Now even you’re providing obscuring feedback!

your reply to me -

earlier reply to ryousen -

Which is it, baharoth?! Just like the game giving mixed signals.

#22

Maybe you should read the posts again, you don’t seem to understand. When you play aggro against control, the most important ressource for you is your opponents aka the control players life total NOT your own life total/board state. It’s completely irrelevant if your general is still a 2/25 in turn 8 when your lategame can’t keep up with his. Having so much life left literally means you wasted damage along the way. And that’s exactly what i wrote up there.

#23

I don’t know baharoth, you’re putting words in their mouth. At what point did they say they were playing an aggro deck? They had a Tiger at some point, that’s not proof of an aggro deck, considering they tell you they had a Grove Lion. That’s a standard aggro minion indeed. As is their assertion that they were removing minions, something an aggro deck is not likely to do.

You’re running off assumptions that are contradictory to any potential evidence exhibited by ryousen. Now I’m happy to agree that in the heat of the moment, ryousen’s probably exaggerating some things, but the gist of it is very different to what you seem to be painting.

#24

Fine, i shouldn’t have said aggro and control, i should have said offensive player and defensive player. Every game, every matchup has one side that needs to be aggressive to win, an one side that needs to be more defensive. Who takes which role is usually decided by how strong their decks are at each stage of the game. But it can also be decided by other factors such as who has the tempo advantage for the moment, by playermentality and so on.

A control deck is usually the strongest in the lategame -> they play defensively most of the time. If your playing against a deck where you know they have the stronger late game, even if your a control deck yourself, you have play offensively to win, you have to play “aggro”. If you play defensively yourself you will just lose in the long run. I assume he played some kind of midrange vaath deck, maybe a Sajj variant, i don’t know and it doesn’t really matter.

If he knows that his lategame can’t deal with a Death Knell then he had to go straight face the moment he saw an arcanyst being played easy as that.

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#25

Opponent from ANY FACTION - Player 1 Turn 1 Aethermaster

Baharoth, regardless of what deck he’s playing - “Right, I’m on a clock, lets go face from now”

Read what you said and tell me, is that honestly how the game should be played? If this is how you recommend the game be played, well maybe something is wrong with it.

Edit: (Yes, ANY FACTION - thanks to the design principle violating Blue Conjurer, EVERY ARCANYST deck can have a Death Knell. So your advice now needs to be applied to non-Abyssian decks too.)

#26

We could argue hours and hours whether or not it should be played like that or not, and how the game should be changed to avoid this but it’s moot.

As it stands now, if your opponents lategame is stronger than your own, you have to be aggressive, that’s a simple strategic fact. And it’s not just this game. I’ve been playing RTS and CCG games for about 15 years now and these kind of things you can find in all of them. Personally i don’t really see anything wrong with that but even if i did, it’s just how strategy works. If you can’t beat the enemy on his strongest point, you have to attack his weak spot or you lose. Complaining about that is like complaining about the sun rising. Pointless.

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#27

I agree with baharoth. Abyssian is such a lategame-oriented faction with cards like Revenant, Deathknell and Obliterate so it is pretty futile to try to go for the long game. Inevitability is on their side.

Identifying who is to aggressor is a very important part of tactics in card games and here’s a legendary article about the subject: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3692_Whos_The_Beatdown.html. It’s about MtG but its fundamentals fit almost any CCG.

#28

You forgot Nightshroud. There was an argument some time ago about RNG of Nightshroud spawning from Death Knell…

Time to stick a million stuns and relocating cards :stuck_out_tongue:.
Transformations should work though since transformed minions can’t be revived.

#29

A great timeless article - unfortunately, Duelyst’s design team have long forgone any principles MtG designers and Mark Rosewater etc. would have advocated in these articles.

It is an excellent read, though. Won’t argue the good intent behind linking it.

(Not directly related - but

isn’t completely true - swarm does aim to (and often does) finish well before both players hit 7 mana)

#30

So I recently watched a video by smash the hamster where he was playing Aggro Lillithe against a more midrangy Zirix opponent.

Smash had a exceptionally poor hand and throughout the course of the game it was clear to see that despite being the more aggressive deck, that it was lillithe that played the part of the value oriented control list and the much better suited lategame Zirix clearly being the aggressor.

The point I’m illustrating is that concepts such as “who’s the beatdown” and identifying your role is far more nuanced than simple “they have a stronger lategame” conventions.

Not only is this is idea that changes from faction to faction, matchup to matchup, game to game but can CONSTANTLY shift during the same game as well due to a host of factors ranging from draws, player skill and board state.

Fundamental gameplay elements to be sure but being as rigid as the norm here in terms of terminology and mentality isn’t a step in the right direction either.

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#31

So basically you’re saying that your playstyle will vary depending on your hand?

#32

I’m saying that there seems to be a rigid adherence to how the game “should” be played, how decks “should” be piloted and how players “should” react to situations that ignore any semblance of nuance that should be applied to these conversations.

Why are we so black and white, right and wrong about how we approach the game when clearly, it’s so much bigger.

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#33

We can’t agree that everyone plays this game differently?

I once saw a steam review of this game that said that they used the daily challenges to get better with chess positioning. That’s it.

It’s a game. Everyone can play it the way they want. If I make a strange play and hope it will work out, that’s my decision.

#34

That’s good of you tell us. Thankfully, not everyone feels this way, or we’d have 0 content creators, 0 players writing beginner guides and faction how-to-play guides and the place would generally be a case of ‘a land of blind men with galaxydueler the one-eyed king’ :stuck_out_tongue:

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#35

I get to be the king? I’m flattered.

I think

#36

Not that Maro and MtG designers are totally infallible as proved by recent bannings in standard and Eldrazi menace in modern format.

Swarm can also play the slower Variax version. :wink:

#37

I know how you feel, I was one of the biggest Variax Haters back in the day. I still have a very strong dislike for the card but thankfully nobody really plays Variax anymore. After reading your post I do see how they are more similar than how I had originally thought, but I still prefer both playing and playing against Death Knell opposed to Variax by a long shot.

Circulus and Blue Conjurer are kinda on the edge for me. They solve the problem that Arcanyst decks had(I played a ton of Arcanyst before the expansion) which was just running out of cards after dumping a bunch of cheap spells to get synergy value. Ordinarily I would run Rite of the Undervault, Trinity Oath, Tectonic Spikes, etc… to refill the hand, but being able to constantly keep your hand full with the effects of well statted minions is very strong. Not having to sacrifice a better part of your turn to play a drawing spell keeps you strong on tempo.