Any plan for formats?


#1

A question about the future of this game. To the best of my knowledge, most if not all the competitve CCGs have implemented formats at some point of their history. For those who don’t know about them, the idea is to stipulate that only the cards of a few sets / expansions can be used for competitive play. The goal of formats is ensuring fresh metas, make the design space larger by rotating out cards, and simplify the life of newer players with less cards to collect overall.

I know Duelyst has just released its first expansion, but I believe that formats will be implemented at some point in time when more cards enter the game. Have plans for formats been discussed already in the forums? I think it would be nice to disclose and / or discuss them, to avoid catching people offguard when formats hit the game.

For instance, the developers of Hearthstone decided to keep the core (“classic”) set as a fixed set, while having only the expansions released in the last two years included in competitive play. Have similar things been discussed for Duelyst? Aka, should I put efforts into expanding my Shimzar collection or can I just prioritize the core set?


#2

I would say yes, as it is not known if CP will go with the set route. If they do decide to implement it, I would assume that they would allow you to disenchant the old set for full value.


#3

Personally I would expect more of a power creeping approach to the game i.e. 1st expansion 2 mana 3/2 Blast 4th expansion 2/3 Blast Deal double damage to enemy minions. That would allow some of the older decks to be played by returning players, but would keep decks changing. I personally like this better as its more forgiving on free to play people. and returning players.


#4

the reason why i love duelyst more than hearthstone now is because of hs implementing rotating out old expansions thats quite stupid to me and all your hard earn money goes to waste buying expansions if they are rotated out to bring about a “new meta” this game is not even “officially” one year old… However duelyst so far to me is here for us the community unlike hs they take months before nerfing op cards or slowing op combos. nerfing and buffs is what makes duelyst stand out to me and with release of monthly cards and future expansions meta will always be changing. In regarding formats only suggestion i made is to have a match ranked mode for those who want to experience longer games which would include siding but unfortunately because my post was getting off topic admin came in and closed that thread.


#5

I would hope they can design it all in a way that rotating out sets will never be needed. I really dislike the idea not playing with that one wonderful card X with its nice art that I can never see anymore just because it’s from old set Y.


#6

I hope not, but I do think CP should slow down a bit. An expansion every three months is pretty insane.


#7

I just hope it wont end up like a way to just squeeze money. If they make the card of a certain expansion “useless” (and even if they keep a format where you can use all the sets it they would be kinda useless anyway since most of the players/competitive scene would start to play mainly in the format that allows just newer cards) they give you some sort of compensation (like disenchanting for full value for a set time in the same way it happens for nerfed cards now). Otherwise I guess that many people would just quit the game since especially the non hardcore may spend like 3 times the time to get a decent collection, and if it become useless the day after they have to start from scratch again… and given that CP plan to release expansion very fast by the time you have a decent collection you have to start all over again and again and again :stuck_out_tongue:


#8

Let’s not forget:

  • it gives an excuse to powercreep and focus less on the balancing as cards will just rotate out
  • it makes players upset as they won’t be able to utilize all of the cards they spend money on in the most relevant format (for reference, no one gives a shit about Wild in HS)
  • it forces players to keep spending money on the new expansions in order to keep up with the meta when they should have a choice whether they want to purchase the expansion or not based on it’s content
  • it actually confuses new players as they will never be sure what expansion to purchase and is it a good time to do so in the first place (just look at HS subreddit, it’s full with those questions).

Fuck no, I want to be use all of my cards I’ve purchased fair and square in the most relevant format and I don’t want them to have an excuse to not balance cards properly. I’ve seen what formats have done to HS and what were the causes and consequences of it and I don’t want to see it anywhere near this game.


#9

Hey, I’m totally with you :slight_smile: I just mentioned the reasons typically used to sell formats! It would be awesome if Duelyst could live forever with no format.

The question, however, is whether it is realistically feasible to avoid formats on the long run. It would be great to know if CPG already has clear ideas on this, at least to choose what is most convenient to do in terms of orbs.


#10

Yu-gi-oh has been doing it for a while. Albeit the approach is power creeping instead. Really Duelyst won’t have to worry about this issue until much later there’s still a lot of space for future cards.


#11

I think most of that’s just because Hearthstone’s design team is unequivocally terrible, they honestly should all be replaced. I’ll agree with you that it is partially to sell more cards, but it can also be to make a set have a particular, unique feel to it, like the Conspiracy draft sets in MTG for example.

If you look at the way Magic does it, it’s a lot more interesting. The different formats are almost like wholly different games, although the team at Wizards doesn’t really support the eternal formats in the slightest which is where they err.


#12

Considering how quickly they plan to release expansions (one every three months if I’m correct), I’d say the time to start worrying is not that far away.


#13

Isn’t that about as fast as most other CCG’s? Also as Duelyst is a card game stuff like battle pets can exist with much less difficulty creating more space for things than a traditional paper card game.


#14

Not sure about other CCGs, but getting a full blown expansion every three months definitely sounds way too much. It should be quality over quantity.


#15

That’s the thing. This is not a complaint, but a legitimate point. We all love the game and it would be cool to have more hints about the future of the project.

For instance, let’s assume we are getting 3 expansions per year, which looks plausible based on empirical evidence collected in the forums. Will all the expansions be as big as Shimzar? If so, the full collection is going to blow up really quick and it will be hard to ensure everything is balanced and interacts correctly with all the remaining cards.

The need for formats may actually be not so far, knowing the developers’ plan for this would be important to plan the best strategy in terms of investing gold.


#16

As for card games in general, I’ve always liked what yu-gi-oh does. They have banned cards (not allowed), restricted cards (only 1 copy in a deck) and semi-restricted cards (2 copies). All the remaining cards are allowed to be used.

That allows players to use all the cards they want, except for a few overpowered cards.

With nerfs being a possibility in duelyst because it’s a virtual card game, I would go as far as saying we don’t even have to ban cards.

Also, restricting the number of a certain card in a deck gives CP another way to nerf a card other than number changing or a complete rework of it


#17

No! God no, please no. Rotating formats are the worst, and a huge money grubbing scam.

Power creep is also not a good method, and it does not necessarily have to happen, especially with a digital game where they can adjust both old and new things at their leisure. Releasing new cards, balancing over turned things, buffing older cards, and supporting various archetypes prevents things from getting stale.

Not to mention it divides the player base between formats. Gauntlet is enough of an alternate game mode, although it really ought to be free, but harder to get rewards out of.

A rotated format is not any friendlier to a new player, the costs are usually the same to make a deck, they have to do just as much learning, and the meta Is super stale for a couple months due to the tiny card pool. And then guess what, time to throw away all your old stuff and buy everything new! To prepare for yet another boring stale couple months, and then it repeats again.

Has anyone ever actually been scared away by a large card pool? I see big pool and think lots of customization, I can do what I want and not be all cookie cutter, and am thrilled with the constant discovery. Most of the learning is mechanics and basic tactics which have little to do with the card pool.

There is a reason why Modern and EDH in MTG are quickly becoming more popular than standard despite that Wizards goes out of their way promote Standard. And unlike Legacy/vintage because edh/modern gets the balancing attention they need, they have been very successful, and that balancing is much easier for a digital game to.


New Player Query
#18

The format is very hatefull, as seen in heartstone where some expansion are unusefull, after grinding for gold, blizzard got my total hate (and after the shitty diablo 3)…
Yay i like to play modern or legacy, but duelyst is like new, with only one expansion, those op cards is being nerfed and the balance for the moment is cool, think is too early to make a speech like this!


#19

I feel the exact opposite about Yu-Gi-Oh! and Hearhtstone. Yu-Gi-Oh! not having formats made power creep the go to. It’s a completely different game compared to what it began as, and it keeps getting crazier with each new series. I quit years ago and every time I think of picking up a starter deck or going online, the new cards turn me off. Hearthstone introducing standard is the first time I was tempted to go back in months.

format pros:

  • It simplifies card design (no worrying about crazy combos, minor tweaks aren’t immediately redundant)

  • It makes it easier (i.e. possible) for new players to catch up

  • It makes it easier (i.e. possible) for free to play players to keep up

Honestly, a few years down the line, balancing for all 10k cards in the game becomes impossible. Yu-Gi-Oh went with most cards having super restricted effects, like only affecting certain types or cards with a common phrase in their name. And power creep. Buttloads of power creep.

I would much rather drop $40-50 twice a year and have cards the rules can handle than spend $40-50 twice a year and have a new mechanic or gimmick introduced every few months.

(Also, imo ~200 new cards/year is perfect. Please keep it around there, CPG)


#20

Imho format just makes things worse for newer/f2p/casuals. You always will need the same amount of cards to play, so for a new players having to craft 40 cards from scratch is the same regardless of the pool size of the cards you can choose from. But for f2p and casuals it just kills the game. Imagine you spend say 1 month to craft a legendary, then after a week the formats rotate and you can’t use that card anymore… How would you feel?