A Vetruvian Main’s Opinion on the Current Opinion of Vet


#1

Hey! :slight_smile: I’ve been playing this game ever since the beta, this is my 12th season of Duelyst and of my time playing this game almost a good 90% of it has been on Vetruvian. I have 12 Vetruvian ribbons, I have prismatic Mk2 skins for Sajj and Zirix, I’ve gotten 12 wins in the gauntlet with Vetruvian. I consider myself at least decent with the faction.

Following the release of RoB, while I was taking a break from the game, a feeling that Vet is currently a trash tier faction has started to grow and widespread among the community. Curious, I decided to cut my break and come back to the game to come to my own conclusions. My decision was to aim for S-rank this season recount my experience to the rest of the community.

This was the deck I used. It’s nothing special, just Midrange Obelisk Vet with three Grandmaster Nosh-Rak added.

http://manaspring.ru/db/ZNR3/

To get to grit of it this is my conclusion:

I’ve seen Vet dead once before, right before the Denizens of Sim’Zar expansion Vet was essentially dead. We had the lowest winrate and the only in faction minion we could use was Aymara Healer. This is not one of those times.

My opinion is that Vetruvian is in a decent position. It’s not the strongest faction and yes there could be improvements, but it’s by no means a weak and dying faction. It has its weaknesses, but it has its strengths as well. I was able to make S-Rank fairly reasonably with 70 wins and with a 70% win rate(I played a total of 72 games with Vetruvian and won 51 of them. If you doubt me feel free to add me and check my match history.). I believe someone who’s practiced with Vet and understands the key matchups can do very on the ladder with Vet.

(Note:I did play a bit of Songhai and Lynor before I figured I was doing this, but only until mid Gold. The rest of the way was purely Vetruvian.).

Here are the stats for those who are interested. (Might be one or two off, I counted these manually and things got a little confusing at times:/)

Argeon:
8 Wins 2 Losses

Ziran:
4 Wins 1 Loss

Kaleos:
4 Wins 0 Losses

Reva:
2 Wins 1 Loss

Zirix:
0 WIns 1 Loss

Sajj:
2 Wins 0 Losses

Lilithe:
10 Wins 5 Losses

Cassyva:
2 Wins 6 Losses

Vaath:
10 Wins 2 Losses

Starhorn:
2 Wins 1 Loss

Faie:
3 Wins 3 Losses

Kara:
2 Wins 0 Losses

Let me ask you guys a question, why do you believe Vet is weak faction?

The first answer would probably be lack of reach and the next two would be the hard counters, Plasma Storm and Night Watcher. (There’s also weakness to dispel I suppose, but since I’m Oblelisk Vet this normally wasn’t a problem. You play so many dispel targets your opponent cannot effectively dispel them all.)

Reach:

On the topic of lack of reach, yes, I’ll admit it definitely affected my run. And yes, I did lose two games because an Abyssian locked herself behind a wall of wraithlings with a Bloodmoon(That’s why I added Repulsar Beast halfway through the run.). But I’m going to refute it with this.

There are six faction in this game. Of the six faction, only two, Abyssian and Songhai consistently rely on high hp utility minions that Vet has trouble dealing with. Despite that Songhai is a favored matchup for Vetruvian. While Abyssian remains a tough matchup, having one bad matchup does not kill a faction when you’re favored or even versus everything else(Yes, that includes Magmar, I’ll talk about it in my matchups section.). Yes, Vet has a lack of reach, but it can be circumvented with smart positioning and Shroud/Repulsar and it only primarily only affects them in only one matchup. That’s not enough to completely ruin a faction.

Hard Counters:

To address, Night Watcher, nobody is playing it. In my maybe 2000 odd games of Vetruvian I faced Night Watcher maybe once or twice. Yes, it sucked, but it was only two games right after it’s release. It’s an incredibly rare card on the ladder, maybe you’ll lose one game because one person teched it but it’s not something that is going to kill the viababiltily of a faction by itself unless one day everybody decides to tech in for some reason(I pray this never happens….).

As for Plasma Storm…… This is going to sound weird, but I after my run my conclusion is that if you understand the matchup, Obelisk Vet is favored versus most variations of Magmar even with Plasma Storm. During my run I faced 15 Magmars; I beat 12 of them and lost to three of them. Yes, these sample sizes are far too small to come to reasonable conclusion but I really did feel that matchup slightly favors you.

Stats aside, the Magmar matchup is fairly reasonable as you; manage to get on board during the beginning of the game and play around Plasma Storm (There’s also Makantor but that’s a given when playing Magmar as anything.).

Let me put it this way, on curve play Plasma Storm is only good if you can wipe your opponent’s entire board. If you wipe out half of it, it’s an incredibly poor play. As Magmar approaches 5 mana cores, you want to start trying to get a 4 attack minion or a Dying Wish minion on the board to make Plasma Storm as awkward as possible. This means if he spends his turn destroying you board he passes initiative to you because you still have something on the board while he doesn’t. Also, even if Plasma Storm wipes your board as long as you can refill your board afterward it’s still in your favor. If you suspect your board is susceptible to Plasma Storm, stop building it. Only put enough minions on board to pressure the Magmar and force the storm. Once he uses it, just refill your board and carry on.

So yeah those are thoughts on the current opinion of Vetruvian, I do think the faction is in a decent place, though I will agree that things can be better. Like there can be a better answer to Bloodmoon wraithling walls than Repulsar Beast, we could use more support for factions other than Obelisks, and Sajj could use a bit more love. But, overall I don’t think we’re in a particularly weak position.

If you guys have any arguments, thoughts, ideas, comments concerning this article please leave it in the comments and I’ll get to it as soon as possible.(Just please leave the pitchforks at home.)

Extra Thought:
Another thing I want to mention is Grandmaster Nosh-Rak. I believe when Vet comes back into the meta, either through new cards or buffs, people on reddit are going to raise utter hell about this card. In my opinion, it’s at least a two off in every board focused Vetruvian deck in the game.

Nosh-Rak opens up a lot of lethals and applies a lot of pressure when it hits the board. As long as you have something on the board, Nosh-Rak will bring your opponent low or just outright kill your opponent. If Nosh-Rak hits the board and sticks, your opponent is all of a sudden open to high amounts of out of hand burst damage via rush minions and Star’s Fury(Which has beautiful synergy with Nosh-Rak.), it’s just an incredibly high pressure card. So much so that outside of the mulligan stage, if I ever found Nosh- Rak I would hold him in my hand for the rest of the game.


#2

I totally agree with you when you say we are a pretty strong faction right now and i have been also saying this for quite sometime. Im gonna be honest i did not read your whole post in detail because im a lazy bastard. But the reason most people just say vet is weak is because the opinions mostly come from players who actually dont spend the time mainingthe faction so they just gather information from other players who also dont actually play it but just look at from the outside


#3

although i like to spread the “vet is weak” opinion, vet is actually pretty tough to beat unless you manage to keep something good out of reach like kelaino (at which point many vets simply concede). honestly i think if cpg never nerfed siphon vet would be top tier.


#4

I think the community has been exacerbating most aspects of the meta lately. Vet is viable, aggro and control are both competitive, Variax isn’t even top tier, Entropic Gaze is annoying but not oppressive. I’ve been enjoying it.

Nothing’s ever perfect but this is surprisingly close


#5

Read the post a couple times, first time thoroughly and the second time I skimmed it. And I pretty much agree with your opinion on Vet right now. We have some of the highest burst potential/ straight up lethal if we set up our board correctly and keep it because of Nosh-Rak and Whispers. Reach and forms of hard removal are where we struggle and dispel is pretty much iffy with Vet now a days but I say we make up for it with the ability to potentially close a game at 6-7 mana.

From personal experience a good chunk of wins I’ve had recently come from playing with a tempo/midrange/bursty play style, which involves aggressive placing of Obelysks and my bigger bodies, i.e. Nimbus and Aymara and keeping my general with in range of the opposing general while focusing on clearing their board with my own minions, with the help of Flacius, Whispers and Rasha’s, while occasionally swinging face with what’s left. Hell I even have a little swarm in my deck with the help of Cryptographer which gives me permanent targets for Third Wish (for burst/ closing games). And the one Nosh-Rak is almost always used to close out games with ridiculously high damage.

In conclusion Vet is awesome and the cards, while hit or miss, are quite amazing.


#6

I was look at your Vet list. Do you not find the L’kian gives you some pretty bad cards most of the time. Unlike a mag or a lyonar who runs L’kian, vetruvian doesn’t have a huge pool of value cards to choose from making the RNG on L’kian pretty risky. Just curious what your thought process was there.


#7

I think you have to look at it’s power in cards as compared to other factions as far as people complaining it is lower tier. One area that I believe was left unmentioned is that the BBS(s) for Vet as a faction are a bit underwhelming compared to those available to generals in other factions. That being said I have really enjoyed playing the faction a lot and I would never claim it isn’t competitive.

I do consider the Reach argument as extremely valid, and Vet desperately needs an effective way to deal with cards such as BMP since they literally make the game unwinnable. While there are plenty of minions that can theoretically do the job they are all too slow. The trick is, as you say, how to give Vet something to mitigate it’s weakness without boosting it’s power level beyond reason.

I’ll openly admit I wasn’t using 3rd wish until recently as I had never crafted them. That card has been an absolute godsend for my deck. I also ragged on Nosh-Rak quite a bit and while there are times he still feels super clunky in hand he is a win condition that must be answered. If he survives even one turn the game is almost guaranteed over. The dream of course is to play him and deal lethal with board, but sometimes that simply isn’t possible.

I have personally opted out of nimbus in large part due to plasma storm, but also because I feel allomancer does a reasonable job in the same role. One of the core issues plaguing both of these cards is that if an opponent goes corner on you they can sometimes create an unwanted body block.

Rasha’s Curse is probably my MVP even though I only use 2 copies it has won me so many games it’s ridiculous.


#8

This is very true. I hate using PStorm when they have a 4 ATK minion up. Sunsteel Defender and Argeon are the first 2 things that come to mind.


#9

L’Kian is mostly just personal preference, yes, sometimes I get bad cards but I just replace them and that’s mostly the end of the story. Getting bad cards off of L’Kian has never been a problem for me while running this deck. But you could swap it out for Sojouner or Divine Spark, I just like the body and the immediate card generation.


#10

I do want to bring up but prior to Siphon Energy’s nerf a lot of decks were cutting it favor of Shroud. Vet has an awkward time with draw so they want to get the most out of the cards they have. People were cutting Siphon because it did too little for a card while Shroud also brought a body.


#11

Great post! Intelligent, logical statements with data behind them. Props!

Vet is my favorite faction as well but you’re more loyal than I am. I play whatever wins on any given month.


#12

If I remember correctly, the popular thing was 2 Siphon/2 Shroud. That way, you had some decent dispel with a body and the Siphon for those things you can’t quite reach or couldn’t afford to summon Shroud for.


#13

Well if you’re going for a 4 drop with a nice body you might as well just use spelljammer


#14

I like to play a value midrange style where i can play more efficiently than my opponent and bleed him dry. Spelljammer kind of screws over that strategy, also I only have one Spelljammer…


#15

I’ve frequently used Primus Shieldmaster in Vetruvian and it’s always been quite good.


#16

Am I the only one that thinks Aymara Healer is too strong right now? I feel like it’s preventing other cards from being able to be buffed, because it’s just so good on its own. Vet doesn’t have a lot of super good tools, but some are just glaringly strong (pax and falcius too). Would love to see some of the more unpopular options get a buff and have Vet be better in general.

But hey, maybe I’m just a salty Magmar that hates Aymara. :confused:


#17

I see why you would hate Aymara since it’s the only common vet card immune to plasma storm (but as a magmar player you don’t want to activate her dying wish anyway so that is good right?). Almost every magmar I fight just uses thumping wave on her, since she is the only Vet card worth using it on.


#18

I’m not an experienced player by any means and I’m not really a Vet main. But from my personal experience the 2 things I think that make Vet weaker than the rest is positioning and slow cards that need time to develop or gain advantage.

So what I mean by positioning is that Vet relies on being able to position cards in a more careful or strategic way than other factions. In other factions you can get away with more poor positioning of cards than you can do with Vet. For example with Obelysks, if you place them too close to your opponent it gives them a chance to remove them or dispel them for free while doing nothing back to your opponent, but if you place them too far away or in a defensive type manner then they won’t have much impact because the Wind dervishes will be too far away and the opponent doesn’t have to approach them until their have an answer. Other factions have minions that need to be played in a similar manner but those minions can be moved/re-positioned on following turns where Obelysks can’t (unless you play Stone to spears which many Vet decks don’t). Also because Obelysks have 0 attack, they don’t get any damage done to minions or generals to help setup up for trades if bad positioning occurs. Of course experience with Vet, plays a big part of knowing what to do and for more inexperienced players getting the positioning wrong seems to mess up Vet decks more than other factions. Which makes it a less attractive faction to play.

The other reason that I think that makes Vet weaker, is that they have more slower cards than other factions. This doesn’t mean there isn’t aggro or fast playing Vet decks, although other factions do it better. But more of a case that if you want to use a lot of Vet cards over neutrals, then it means your more likely to play slower cards compared to other factions. Like Obelysks don’t do much until your next turn, dying wish minions don’t have an effect until their die which may take a couple of turns (unless they get dispelled), Nosh-Rak only does something if you have a board, but if you don’t it takes another turn to really start dishing out the damage. Other factions do have slow cards, however from my experience they have more fast cards that can do something more than Vet. Also since Vet now has Nosh-Rak its highly unlikely that we’ll see fast cards released in Vet in the future because it would make the faction… oppressive (not sure if its the word I want to use, but I’ll use it anyway) if their are able to make fast plays to dominate or take over the board with a turn 7 play which can deal double damage to generals.

I’ll quickly touch on reach as well as Plasma Storm and Night Watcher.

Reach is something that Vet is not good for, but there are ways like positioning or using something like Tiger to get around that and its something all factions have to deal with if they don’t have a ranged or AoE answer in hand.

Personally, I’ve never found Plasma Storm to be a major problem. Its certainly annoying but it costs 5 mana and is usually the only play that is made that turn by Magmar giving me first chance to play the board afterwards.

Night Watcher, is something I’ve added 3 of, into decks before when there is a lot of Rush minions (Tiger) being played on ladder. Its pretty devastating against Vet since it makes Wind Dervishes bad and I’ve simply won games against Vet just by playing one that the Vet player couldn’t answer. However, like you said its a rare card to actually play against even though it got massive hyped when it first came out. So its not really something that Vet players should worry about unless Vet dominates the ladder and people start adding it in as a tech card.

Should also say that I’ve never played Siphon Energy pre or post nerf with my own Vet decks as I never believe that using up a card slot just to dispel something with no damage or minion body being worth it, although I know others will disagree with me on that.

To summarize if you just want to read one paragraph instead of all that.

Overall, my opinion on Vet is that positioning is more important in Vet than other factions which hurts inexperienced players and poor positioning certain minions. Which makes the faction harder, although not necessary weaker for more experienced players, but weaker for those inexperienced because they’ll need to learn to position better to maximize the faction compared to other factions. While slower cards (like Obelysks and dying wish minions) in the faction makes it weaker because it takes more time for cards effects to take place compared to other factions which have faster options. While Reach is something that all factions have to deal with when they don’t have a ranged answer in hand which doesn’t particularly make Vet weaker, while plasma storm is annoying but usually the only play Magmar makes that turn giving you first play afterwards, and Night Watcher is a rarely played tech card which is unlikely to see a lot of play without Rush somehow becoming a problem or a big deal to play against.

Those are just my thoughts though.


#19

I don’t think vets are dead nor they are underpowered.

but i’ll agree to them being the weakest faction overall :slight_smile:

(Off topic: i would like to see the “buffvet” as a archtype since they have a lot of minion centered buff spell)


#20

I used to expirement with a deck full of golems and Vet buffs. It didn’t go very good, unless I got a flying Dragonbone Golem. Later I tried to get astral phasing to be useful, and came up with the idea of using it on chaos elemental. That was much more successful (and very funny too), although it was still too lackluster to be used for climbing.