A Vanar thread without nerf suggestions


#1

I created this thread while looking to the other discussion going on about vanars.

The more i tink about them the more i find myself confused,
breaked down:

  • are they control, aggro or mid range?
    Now, i don’t really expect a faction to be just one of those, but not counting neutral cards, what do we have? A bunch of cards that brings nowere, cheap efficient removal (so good tempo) vespyrs minions (op cards, op like overpriced) and wall cards (stalling cards…?),
    The end, 2 different archtypes, a bit like abyssian but not as good in terms of sinergies or mechanics

Walls doesn’t help each other (rightfully so)
Vespyrs has maybe 3 usable minions

Removal is really good, something like gravity walls can be used and that’s it.

So…are they the removal faction? I guess yes.
Then, second point happens

  • generals

Faie, actually strenghtens removal faction’s identity idea but, unlike abyssians, she doesn’t give a hint on what she should play, vespyrs? Walls? Neither?

Kara, what’s this?, why is this here?
Why stats buffs in a removal faction?
this is to gain more value from minions, combo this with cheap removal and well done!
You just made a worse faie deck.

No sinergy with nothing, it’s there to buff…things, i guess walls since they play more minions but, wait

Compare them
Give +1/+1 to all minions you play
Deal 2 damage to enemy general (column)

This means kara bbs should deal at least 2 damage every time you use it to be better (or on the same level, more or less) than faie’s one.
This means you should give at least +1/+1 to 2 minions or more, oh, i forgot to mention, this faction has no draw options
(Except circulus, but that needs neutral cards to work and i’m trying not to use them)
So, what are we going to buff with kara?

Is this possible with walls? Not really,
buffed gravity wells can deal 4 damage and stall
(This given the opponent doesn’t play anything, doesn’t dispel anithing etc), but the walls need to attack to do so, thus you lose a turn and they also die since they are 1/2.
Faie can do this only better since your walls doesn’t need to attack, they are just stalling tools and that’s enough, you can stall longer and lose less due to dispell and similar, what’s more, the damage is immediate and inevitable.
Vespyrs are enough bad on their own.

Just some toughts in bad engrish


#2

I must agree with you; Vanar’s identity has become quite warped following many expansions. However, I would disagree with your assessment on Kara, at least in terms of purpose.

While Vanar is heavily viewed as the ‘removal’ faction, they have always suffered from weaker statted minions, more obviously seen with walls, allowing bone chill barriers and gravity wells to attack enemies now with Kara’s bloodborne spell. However, this was not implemented until after changing Kara’s bloodborne spell from a handbuff (that could stack BTW) to a field buff (which was recently made simpler to use).

Instead, I think that Kara was meant to improve vespyr gameplay, reinforcing vespyr tools like Snowchaser. Vespyrs have always been hinted as a more zoo orientated archetype, with cards like Borean Bear and Glacial Elemental benefiting from summoning vespyrs, and cards like voice of the wind and the Ent (7 mana 7/7 that gives your minions Dying Wish: summon a 1/1 ent with provoke in its place) benefiting a zoo-like playstyle. Personally, I feel that Kara’s bloodborne spell is perfect as it is currently to support this playstyle, although walls and vespyr just need a bit more zoo orientated support.

In fact, I think Circulus was the niche card that Kara needed to become more viable (similar to Decimus and Tectonic Spikes benefiting Starhorn). Kara needed a way to reliably stack minions in her hand to buff, which in turn could help fuel engines like Voice of the Wind (although limiting its versatility, such as making all spell-promoted arcanysts like Blue Conjurer and Circulus not proc from using your bloodborne spell, would be helpful in reducing its power, and bolster the uniqueness of the blood surge keyword). However, similar to the situation with Magmar, they have recieved little support for their archetype for versatile tools, and while helpful, I would really like to see a greater focus on each faction’s identity, and make it their true strength.


#3

I think of Vanar as the troubled teen faction of Duelyst. It doesn’t seem to able to create an identity for itself, but rather just goes along with whatever the developers want it to be for the season.

Without strong in-faction minions, this will always be the case because unlike other factions that get additional support for pre-established archetypes, Vanar has to reinvent itself as new minions get added to the game.


#4

I agree with most of the analysis. I just wanted to point out that the problem is serious in Vanar, but also a few other factions suffer from similar issues.

Here is an interesting article on this topic at Bagoum:

http://www.bagoum.com/analysis/faction-coherence

This was published in January, so before Ancient Bonds. Most of the observations still apply, but I think the situation got worse for Songhai. Songhai used to be the burn faction, yet Ancient Bond gave them only slower cards. Indeed the best Songhai archetype right now is controllish


#5

After @akurane’s post i went to bagoum to try and see the cards on a different perspective.

And yes, the zoo idea is pretty well defined.
I was wrong on kara

But, the main cards (like voice of the wind and frostiva) are all slowish and easily answerable cards that often can’t be played on curve…
(Not counting the high presence of magmars on ladder that renders them pretty useless)

And this leads on to other points i guess:

  • future (?)
    This faction could be struck in this limbo,

if we were to increase wall and/or vespyrs sinergy to benefit kara
Faie would just take the cards and become better.

If we were to add removal to make faie more prominent, kara would just disappear.

  • kara centered minions or spells, does they exist?

Some, like myriad hints “kara’s property”.
You’ll probably think voice of the wind and frostiva are kara’s too, that’s not it
They are just good minion all around, they don’t really benefit from kara’s bbs, as almost any aoe (the ones you see in ladder) kills the evoked minions anyway, so faie’s sure damage are better in this case too, as that limits dispel weaknesses.

What kind of minion gains so much value getting +1/+1?
when are those stats better than 2 assured damage on the enemy general?

I guess the only mechanic which could bring up kara (and mind me, only kara)

Is blood surge.
If we were to make an example

a minion gets blood surge: “stat changes caused by bbs applies twice during this turn”
(That’s so broken with arcanysts, but they are next, spoilers mhuaahahahah)

This is a useless card for faie, it’s a pure kara card

This would put the faction more on the abyssian level, i mean, cards that work better with one general than the other.

Then (gosh am i tired of writing on phone)

  • neutral minions, arcanysts and mechaz0r

As we all know vanars decks are composed by
Vanar’s spells and removal
Faie’s bbs
Neutral minions
1-2 big vanar minions, but this just to swap out meltdown

You’ll agree this is bad.
But why are they used instead of the main minions?

Lets put the “cuz their bad muh m8” reason aside
Other reasons? Yes

Better sinergy all around.
Some vanar cards give the impression to be created thinking about neutral cards.

Spirit of the wild is for mechazor, not for gost seraphim (it does more damage if you put mechaz0r pieces on the opp side of the board and it’s not affected by positioning)
Wailing overdrive is for saberspines.
Polarity? Owlbeast
Razorback and jax are self explanatory

Some of them can be used on everything (like wailing) but works better with those neutral cards.

Mechaz0r and arcanysts
I don’t want to go too deep as they should not be faction identity by any means, but they have become so a mention is inevitable

Both, as you would expect, goes by themselves.
They both make use of a timer,

For mechaz0r is the build %
For arcanyst is the mana counter, the more it goes up the more they are strong

They are both slowish, they both doesn’t gain tempo, they both doesn’t benefit from kara’s bbs

Arcanyst actually can, but what’s the difference between a 2/15 and 3/16, you probably will lose against it anyway, unless dispell (then again faie’s bbs is better).

Neutral cards are not meant to be faction identity.

For now that’s all.
Feel free to add in, agree, disagree or insult :smile:


#6

Cirulus shouldn’t proc off BBS. Now this thread has nerf suggestions :wink:

i should be doing something worthwhile


#7

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