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A question. How to beat Smash/Midrange Vaath?

You can beat him with Vanar but it isn’t easy.
Let’s get the obvious stuff out of the way. As always, play around Makantor and Lavaslasher. So for example if you wanna put a Rex down, make sure you can move far away from it so they can’t Makantor you next turn. Or if they put metallurgist down first turn, play your stuff outside of Lavaslasher range.
Lavaslasher is only really scary when it gets to proc fight on turn two which can very clearly be played around, most other times it’s just a worse Brightmoss Golem and it shows if you play around it. You will feel the tempo loss as the game goes on.
If they play stuff that dies to rebuke, you play stuff that dies to rebuke.
If they play stuff that dies to plasma storm, you play stuff that dies to plasma storm. If you look at the deck I posted for example, if they have a bunch of metallurgist golems, and I have to choose between wisp or mentor, I’ll go with mentor. if they have a bunch of 4/4 lavaslashers and I have the choice between Kron and Letigress, I’ll go with Kron.
One really really good card is Sworn Avenger and it’s a devastating turn one play as the second player. If it survives early on, it becomes immune to natural selection and forces them to eventually waste Lavaslasher or Makantor on it mid game. In general Lavaslasher and Makantor HATE being spent on targets with high attack and Sworn Avenger is one of them.
You can also set up plays with Frostburn the same way they do with their board clears, because after all they have to be the aggressor. So if they have a bunch of little minions, move back and put value generators on board to encourage them to move forward giving you a big Frostburn.
If you’re getting to the lategame and you haven’t won yet, you gotta start preparing for finality and look for Lightbender. In general if I draw a Bender, I’m very conservative with it and I will only use it if I have to. You might not draw more than one throughout the course of the game and you will need it to counter finality.
Sometimes the Vaath player might be meming with Kraigon instead of Finality which is the proper way to play, so it pays well to also have Hailstone Prison and EMP in hand when at that stage.
Corner provokes with Kron are relatively easy to pull off in this match up because most of the time, Vaath doesn’t have many minions on the board around him. So for example if there’s a Lava Slasher 2 spaces in front of him, walk forward and put Kron in the bottom left corner and body block the slasher with your general and cover the other space adjacent to Kron and Vaath and your general with a cheap minion. Rex is perfect for the job for example because it doesn’t die to Vaath even if he has buffed his attack. If you are forcing him to punch the Kron with his face you’re getting value.

That’s all I got.

Here’s an example game that illustrates everything I talked about:
https://play.duelyst.com/replay?replayId=-LyJVWhF6WhyXWuAQJya

Played recently while I was rank 1

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15 characters posted by mistake mods delete please

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I see you are a man of culture aswell ^^

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In swarm, soûl grim war is very helpful. Magmar has troubles with artifact.
But people should think carefully before crafting it,

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All this talk about Makantor made me craft Superior Mirage.

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My experience with Mirage was pretty lacking, it was just quite rare to encounter good targets overall. But maybe I just had bad luck then.

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I had an aggro Lyonar deck which suffered greatly in the matchup, but teching two Dawn’s Eyes helped a lot. In abyssian, you can tech Soul Grimwar, which is good in general, and watch the Vaath stand still for 60 seconds trying to think of what to do then.

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Maybe the countermeasure we should learn from all of this is that if you don’t want your deck to struggle against face vaath you should include artifacts that generate continuous value. Like furor chakram for abbysian or bangle for songhai. Granted those two don’t go in all decks, but the artifact counter might still be something to consider.

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Artifacts like Chakram, which buff minions, are inconsistent against Vaath due to the difficulty of preserving bodies alive. At least in my experience.

Artifacts that buff the general on the other hand are, of course, superb.

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I kinda thought that even if you can’t keep a strong board you can either make him use his rebukes on 3 wraithlings or just keep ramming +2 atk minions at him. All your minions having +2 atk can’t be that bad even if he is clearing your board. However the frenzy part is useless though …

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I can imagine that Makantor hitting wraithlings and face could be a problem keeping Chakram, unless you somehow made some distance with Vaath.

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As this thread is a discussion of possible Vaath counters, I’d like to mention I use Tracers in my minion/burn decks as a way to avoid Vaath and it helps.

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Vaath runs tracers as well, so its less of a counter and more “if you can’t beat em, join em”.

Chakram doesn’t help you keep minions on the board, since rebuke still kills everything and plasma still kills wraithlings. Frenzy is great though, because it buys 1 more turn between rebuke and getting headbutted.

The only time I use chakram defensively is to complete bloodtide priestess + shaman buff + chakram. The perfect wall against Vaath… or at least buys enough time for Xor.

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I would love to see the face of the person playing vaath when he uses tracer, gets within one tile range with his hand full of clears and then you just use tracer too and he is back to square one.

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smash vaath vs artifact/trial sajj

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Two enter, only one leaves :smiley:

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My bet’s on Saji! Anyone stupid enough to bet on Vaath?

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Frenzy part is helpful because they can’t Rebuke while standing near your minions.
Buffing artifacts in general are a problem though because, from my personal experience, you either don’t have a board to benefit from (both Chakram and Grimwar) or opponent is already aware of this “problem” and has the entire ping package (Bloodtear, Entropic, Spikes, Rust Crawler, Krater/Skorn, Makantor).

Songhai has a funny way to buy some time - Bamboozle. But it would be good only in solo decks and those don’t have room for it.

Also Kron & Tigress are both versatile and hard to remove minions, but that kinda moves your deck towards tempo/midrange.

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On the seven Mana mark - sajj will use vaath as boots.

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