Duelyst Forums

A Few Balance Thoughts

#21

With Tiger, that’s sortof the idea. It’s a neutral card, which means it needs to be at odds with faction cards. If it’s outclassed by faction cards, that isn’t a big deal- and since it isn’t outclassed by Blades, it has a niche. But yes, the idea is to make it prohibitively expensive to suit up a rush minion outside of Songhai.

TBH, I think you’re reading too much into these suggestions as though this is a salt thread. My experiences in Duelyst haven’t swayed me to these opinions because “x feels bad when people do it to me”- so much as “x has too much sway in an alarming number of games spec’d or played”- whether in my favor or against it. I’ve been blown out by Divine Bond more than Tiger- but that doesn’t mean Divine Bond is a problem. I have been able to distinguish what was just poor play on my end, bad RNG, and what really both in and out of my favor has created some pretty busted gamestates.

I used to grind Magic tournaments- and while that doesn’t make me a good Duelyst player- it does make one consider sample sizes intrinsic to balance related issues. The kind of gauntlet my playgroup would create for our brews would involve format-based decks with maddening power levels, and group rotation (passing the deck to a friend to make them play it;) so that we could get intimate matchup based knowledge- and build understanding the parameters of the dominant archetypes. After a couple years of this, it takes alot from a TCG to get me salty to the point of calling something broken, unless it’s obviously busted on the surface.

Where that ties in, is that some cards in my experience have fundamentally broken Duelyst repeatedly, and I really just don’t want to approach the balance discussion about a card without anything but salt to offer. If you disagree with my Tiger suggestion, do you have a better one? I’d be happy to see it. If anybody left better suggestions I’d happily errata the OP, with their suggestion and credit to them. But understand, I do respect your disagreement on all fronts; it would have been asinine to make a thread saying “Duelyst should have a major balance shift” and not expect resistance (infact, I feel pretty lucky that the resistance has all been so polite- in the Hearthstone forums, I would have been burned in effigy and told to kill myself by now.)

The ramping thing is something that peaved me when I started playing the game, and only just sortof got more and more peavish. I think the cost reduction spells are far less of a problem than the center mana tile because spending them reduces your handsize and options. I get your feeling that I might be low silver because my suggestion to change something so fundamental about the game; but my opinion is informed by seeing the grotesque permutations play out so frequently where P2 has to overdevelop, put themselves in a corner to defend a 3-drop etc, because the center mana tiles exacerbates FTA. Where, without it- player 2 would be at a slight disadvantage for roughly 2-3 turns, but the power of their average play would exceed player 1’s (pushing the tempo of the game ever forward still- but not at the same breakneck pace.)

I’ve been complaining about ramping the whole time, but if I’m being honest- the game has had bigger issues; just not recently. Gaze is the idol of ire because it empowers Smorcing, but has a very real opportunity cost attached (if your opponent doesn’t have a full grip, you put them closer to it.) By comparison, overzealous cost reduction and Windfall (low cost, high value draw that forces the inactive player to mass draw as well;) effects (the Spikes precident) have REPEATEDLY broken CCGs over and over again (and many of them didn’t have a hard hand limit of 6.) Even if we ignore the Decimus combo (which we shouldn’t-) the sheer power these give to high tempo decks is nuts- and Duelyst’s version does 3 damage to boot!

Anyways- thankyou for participating in the discussion :smiley: Look forward to reading your next reply.

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#22

In my opinion the game is what I like to call “perfectly broken.” All factions (except maybe Vetruvian) have insanely busted cards in a vaccuum, except Songhai, but they have so much synergy with everything in their kit that the normally “bad” cards are now really cheesy. I absolutely love this game’s state in the upper half of decks, as its a competition to out bullshit the other player. The interactions, counterplays, baits and all are wonderful, and I hope they don’t change too much. Maybe a nerf or two to Magmar, hopefully a buff to Kara or the Vetruvians, I don’t really know. The losing to RNG can be a bit annoying, but this is afterall a card game.

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#23

I like to run tiger with kara to leave a 4/1 body on the board after rush-facing. Costs 1 mana and leaves 4 damage still open to respond.

#24

Your revised Tiger is most definitely outclassed by DBlades. In nearly every way. My previous post discussed that, and was my main point in why this Tiger is basically useless.

My argument isn’t that there are better nerfs when it comes to Tiger, it’s that the card doesn’t need a nerf. If I listed cards that I thought were maybe too strong in Duelyst, it would be Kelaino, Gaze and Variax, all for different reasons. And even then I don’t think any of these is too bad. Tiger hasn’t been oppressive, it’s not so strong that it’s played in every deck, it’s simply often the only option for the role the card plays. And as the game expands, some cards will do Tiger’s roll better in some decks, and it won’t be seen as much. But as it stands, I just don’t think you can call the card OP.

I actually quite like the meta right now. Most everything is viable, there’s no single deck that just destroys everything else, it’s pretty solid. I wouldn’t mind modifications to the game map or starting mana costs, but I don’t really see a problem with it in its current state. If you’re protecting a 3 drop in the corner, odds are you aren’t a deck that wants to get close anyways, and your opponent isn’t likely to take all 3 tiles, so you can still contest them.

The beginning of the game gives a lot of options, especially for P2. Take the mana tile and play 2 2 drops, but let them clear the one in front? Play a 3 where they can hit it? Protect a 3? Play it just out of range? Play a 3 drop with a 1 cost spell? And I don’t think we should get rid of this dynamic. If we do 3 drops will be vital as well, and it’ll be ‘P1 plays a 2 drop on the diagonal, P2 plays a 3 drop on the diagonal…’ not very interesting. And if you’re a ranged deck, you’re forced to contest the mana tiles or lose to your opponent ramping out something you can’t deal with.

As it stands, I haven’t heard anyone who has a problem with Tiger, the mana tiles or Bloodmoon before, and I simply think your arguments against them don’t have much support.

Your suggested changes would shift the game to a control meta, which is fine by me (it’s been a while) except that you simply invalidate so many cards. With the release of Variax and Geomancer, it doesn’t seem as though CPG ever wants a control meta to come back, and prefers a faster game. I feel as though people underestimate control decks currently, they’re more viable than you think.

I know this isn’t a salt thread. I know you think these changes would help the game. But as I see it, it’s quite a few extremely hard hitting nerfs for no reason, and taking away several interesting aspects of the game, yet again for no reason. Having weak logic behind removing ramping or nerfing balanced cards leads me to believe you haven’t put answers in your deck for things like Bloodmoon and are pissed at Ramp Variax. Why else would you want to remove an entire archetype, change the game’s map, nerf cards that no one else is complaining about? Your arguments just don’t hold up.

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#25

I was referring to his nerfed Tiger, the 3/4 for 5. There are plenty of cheap combos with current Tiger, and Kara BBS isn’t even the strongest.

#26

Forgive me if this sounds like a dumb, knee-jerk rebuttal; but being perfectly honest- People have complained about Tiger for as long as Tiger has had Rush. Even when the reddit was a barnstorm of “Kara is Evil” threads, the argument raged between “nerf kara” and “nerf tiger”- when I dug backwards, it was the same deal with old Third Wish. Up until Bloodborn, people were complaining about Tiger because of how much it contributes to Tempo Argeon’s domination. The tiger argument isn’t without both precedent and a repeated pattern of a neutral card creating imbalances. For the record, I was always on the “Change Kara”, and “Change Spelljammer” end the more recent discussions; but the fact still remains that for as long as there is an efficient, cheap, or powerful buff- Tiger will find it’s way into domination once more. In the last month, sure- nobody has really made an uproar about a tiger combo, mostly because the reddit and forum have been cursing Gaze and Variax- the same way that the reddit and forum shifted to Reva rage in between the Kara and Argeon salt.

Bloodmoon is the same sortof deal. Deathwatch is insanely easy to setup because of generals being able to finish off minions, 1/1 spamming etc. I don’t think Bloodmoon has ever been off-the-table for discussion about balance issues for as long as I’ve played. I am aware that it once cost 3 mana- and was adjusted to 4 a very short time before I began playing; but the tools that are played with it have also gotten significantly better.

Variax… is a confusing “issue”. Mostly, because having played it- I’m leery about over-correction and over-reaction. Since we’ve never really played in a world where Variax is actually played as a 7 drop, we don’t know how it stacks in a fair game. I’ve played 7 mana Variax, it has been good- but the likelyhood of it being deemed “inferior to Revenant” without the sheer force of DFS and Bloodmoon support is super real. Much of the high level play tends to eschew Variax for that reason already- but whether that’s a mistake or not has yet to be seen and properly stressed.

I honestly, don’t think that a “control meta” exists- or rather, in my experiences, they really don’t. I’ve played many MtG formats with mammoth control decks that were format boogeymen, but those formats tend to have the most wiggle room as far as “what to play” goes. I do, however, think that these changes would make Argeon significantly weaker and encourage a midrange/big aggro meta… But I think that would be an ideal direction for the game atm- so I do have bias.

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#27

Yeah, we can disagree. I’ve always thought that the combos with Tiger usually broke more than just Tiger, so they should be the target of nerf. And so it has been. You should’ve seen pre-nerf Tiger back in alpha :frowning:

You can swarm your way to gold, but it’s definitely not easy to set up in the fast meta played currently. The only viable top tier swarm is fast swarm, reliant on killing your opponent before 6 mana. The setup required otherwise is too difficult and inconsistent. I main swarm, and it just isn’t strong compared to other decks. And if it were, Bloodmoon wouldn’t be the problem, Kelaino would be. Bloodmoon is the only source of self generating swarm.

I just don’t agree with the things you think are problems with this game. I don’t even really play these cards and I don’t see anything wrong with them currently. And I don’t think I’ll end up agreeing with you, but there’s no sense in endlessly arguing.

#28

Huzzah, this is what makes forums fun!

In large, I would tend to agree. When I first started, the whole “thing” was Kara with Ash Mephyts and Tigers. Found myself baffled that it was remotely okay for Ash Mephyt to work with double KS. But in time, I tried to brewing Ash Mephyt with things like Inner Oasis (which is very fun) and learned rather quickly that it’s the enabler that pushed Mephyt so hard.

Interesting avenue. Though my opinion all Kelaino has been for a while that the issue isn’t what Kelaino does, but Vanar and Vet specifically having zero sustained healing, or high burst healing like Earth Sphere. I suppose it sortof makes sense for Vanar since they have all of the cheap dispels- but I actually think the game is in need of more faction-based sustained healing. Sun Seer, for example, is one of my favorite cards- but dreadfully tough to play because it’s proc is an attack trigger- and the payoff of 2 life makes it’s baseline meh. I’ve gotten high value Sun Seers before, but it (like other attack triggers) is sortof lacking in support beyond “tuck it in a place where it’s difficult to eat it”.) Sustained healing is what makes exciting cards like Killing Edge more or less fair.

D: Oh no, I hope you don’t see this as an argument. I thought we were just engaging in some critical conversation to pass the time and learn how we’ve reached different conclusions.

#29

@paralykeet
I think you are (as am I) wanting a different game than Duelyst was originally meant to be. I really like your ideas, but sadly they are going to fall on deaf ears.

Most of us are aware of what this game was meant to accomplish in its earlier incarnation: super fast, super swingy, super fun matches; with a dash of strategy baked in with the postioning aspect. As soon as one card draw started, it was a clear indication that CP wanted to slow the game down a smidgen and remove some of the consistency. I had no real issue with the changes because the 2-draw format was not sustainable in the long-term, in regards to design space. As much as I want this game to slow down even more, it just isn’t something that the majority of the players want.

It is not to say your ideas preclude the ability to play decently quick matches any given moment, with player skill and RNG of the draw as major factors. It’s simply this: removing the level of ramp will slow the game down, but not necessarily remove aggro as an archetype.

Hell, I have dreamed of a bigger board with even more mana springs with giant armies of minions marching across the great divide, between generals with 50 health, but that is not Duelyst and never will be. If for nothing else, I would love to see a slightly bigger board in an alternate game mode. I would also like to see the center mana tile removed because it does strongly encourage players to move center or risk 100% suboptimal plays. But, then again, that is the entire point and CP is not going to change that and risk having the average per-match game time increase.

Where is the balance between what I want Duelyst to be and what CP is attempting to achieve? It is easy to answer for myself, but absolutely impossible for me to explain to others beyond my own opinions. We all have to decide whether or not to play the game as presented to us, hope CP at least considers the majority playerbase input on long-term game development, or walk away. There is no point in playing a game you don’t support and doesn’t support you.

Life is too short to get bent out of shape on stuff like this. And I know this is not a salt thread, so don’t think that I am dismissive to your or anyone else’s ideas because of it being a game, with little consequence to life on this little rock in space. We have to hold on to the little joys in life, be it games or hobbies, to balance out the sometimes bewildering lessons of mere existence and our ability to contemplate the meanings of such, along with the burden of consciousness in general…
…whatever, don’t mind me. I’ll just be over there in the dark corner crying over the futility of human existence and wallowing in self-doubt. Maybe I should throw myself a pity party, too.

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#30

Oh no, definitely a discussion. And I agree with you on the healing bit, but I don’t see it happening with the route this game is taking.

As for the healing trigger, perhaps Daywatcher is what your looking for? Or perhaps that requires too much setup.

#31

Idk to be perfectly honest what the developer’s intentions are. Many of the things that I’ve described aren’t issues with early beta Duelyst. 2 card draw Duelyst is all about playing 2 drops, and accelerating super hard into bursty, flashy wins. But that isn’t what the game IS anymore. 1 card draw, increased focus on profitable trading etc. fundamentally change how the game works- and elements that were once cute nods to other games have become full blown design issues. Mana springs, for example, are sortof a wink and nod to Faeria, and originally were meant to attract players to the center of the board early on because the game was built from the floor up to be played at a breakneck pace with small hand sizes, and lots of cheap plays.

But, with a larger opening hand, single card draw, and Bloodborn Spells, the game simply wants to be played more ponderously in windows created by whatever tools you have. That doesn’t mean that the game has to be slower per se, to keep high tension tactical play- but it does have to accommodate the need for many strategies to slow the game down. The result being that Duelyst is sortof stuck in a limbo right now between being it’s own CCG experience, and a SMorcier Hearthstone clone with bits of Faeria sprinkled all over it.

That would be nifty. I’ve actually wanted to see how cards that generate mana springs would effect the game.

RE: This isn’t a salt thread :stuck_out_tongue:
Really, the only thing that makes me even want to make this sortof thread is how much Duelyst is on the cusp of being something all it’s own- and how short of leap it has to make by letting go of what it has imitated, and what it was in Alpha. If this were a game like Hearthstone or Faeria, that’s already sortof set in what it is, I wouldn’t see a point in making a post like this (and I refrain from making posts like these often because of how many pop up in a half baked manner.)

I don’t really expect anyone at CPG to read this. To be perfectly honest, I didn’t even expect it to get 13 forum likes either. My expectation was to share some thoughts, get flamed for being a scrub, and go on with life. Rather, I just wanted to perform a forum community oriented thought experiment in the vain hope of stirring up some interesting conversation about the state of Duelyst without necessarily fixating on the immediate flavor of the week issues. That went pretty well :stuck_out_tongue: If a Dev does read this though, I hope they decide to tell me what a turd I am on Discord, so thatI can screenshot it, save it, and keep it as a souvenir whether Duelyst plummets or flourishes.

#32

The very next line, dude.:kissing_heart:

I do love a good discussion, and this one really has potential to go far. Let’s keep it rollin’ along!

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#33

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