Thanks to everyone for the interesting thoughts so far, Iâm going to mull things over before deciding if I can add anything else, because I just want to add one thing.
Rush is always a component to these discussions, and I was wondering if Duelyst shouldnât just consider taking a page out of Shadowverseâs book and amending Rush to negate any damage done to Generals. What say you?
That or as someone has suggested, making it exhaust after attacking OR moving, not both.
Flash reincarnation is actually balanced.You get something out early but it takes damage.The only thing not balanced is forcefield minions(and gajj) and that isnât really all that bad because the game has cheap removal and tempo loss of flashing out something have it removed for cheap is crushing.
You can compare DFS Variax to FR Sithlar.Going second Magmar can play Elder on turn 1.While it is one of the stronger plays you can make it is infinitely more counterable than Abyss Version.
Warbeast and Elucidator both have four health so most of the time when you flash them out they die.Yes you can stuff to mitigate them dying but the point of ccg is to be clever like that.
This is just one thing out of many things in your post that is wrong.You can make an argument that DFS and FR should have a cost like 1 mana but to be gone No thatâs a horrible idea and this post is filled with tons of horrible idea but hey this just a persons opinion not a dev.
I feel shadowverseâs differentiation between storm and rush could work well in duelyst. If tiger couldnât attack face the turn it was played it would still retain a lot of utility and could be buffed for value, but it would also cut out the likes of tiger/TW shennanigans of 8 face damage for 6 mana before Mag have started clapping you with whatever else they happen to have on the field.
removing the center mana tile is a terrible suggestion. this means player 2 spends their entire turn removing player 1âs 2-drop or they take both tiles to play 5 mana worth of minions next turn. if you want to remove 1 mana tile you have to remove all of them.
Hey 
I appreciate you effort into turning your thoughts into an article. However, Iâm going to disagree with you on most of your points. Here are my opinion on your points.
Darkfire Sacrifice:
I truly donât see the point of changing Darkfire Sacrifice, itâs an underplayed card that enables greedy âTimmyâ Abyssian decks based around big minions, which doesnât much play. The only real problem is its interaction with Variax, but even than is gutting the card really necessary? Itâs been proven that Turbo Variax is super inconsistent and a rather mediocre deck. Does a card that enables a fairly weak archetype need to be gutted for an inconsistent deck? Iâll admit while I think itâs fine to double ramp out Variax Iâm not too fond of the diea. One idea I particularly like is just make it so Variax has the card text, This card cannot have itâs mana cost reduced. This keeps Sacrifice the same and Variax more or less the same, but even then I donât think itâs entirely necessary,
Also, the rework is probably too situational and combo based to ever see play. Swarm hardly ever runs high attack minions to abuse Sacrifice with, and if youâre comboeing it with Darkfire Crescendo, chances are you had lethal without it. Furthermore, Voidsteal, which does the same thing more or less without a sacrifice is a thing so I doubt this version of Sacrifice will ever see play.
Flash Reincarnation:
On the other hand of the ramping game we have Flash Reincarnation, who sees plays in nearly every single version of Magmar. Flash is insanely relied on by both Control and Midrange Vaath, itâs the glue that makes greedy Magmar and standard Magmar work. The removal of Flash reincarnation would be utterly disastrous for these decks, Midrange mag relies heavily on Flashing out 4 drops to work while Control Mag wants it to get Makantor out early for Keeper. Iâm not convinced with your argument that this card needs to go, Mag is not strong because it can flash out Elucidator or Makantor( Hell, flashing either is almost always a really bad play. Flash Makantor is only good if you wipe their board with it otherwise itâs a bad play and Flash Elucidator if you arenât using it to finish off the game is utter garbage.)
Its rework is the kind of support that should not be printed. In an ideal world, why would you play a card in a Rebirth deck that wants you to run non Rebirth minions? For consistency sake, you want your cards to naturally have Rebirth if thatâs the focus of your deck. You do not want to add a card that makes that forces you to play non-Rebirth cards and does nothing with your own Rebirth minions. The other issue is that itâs bad out of Rebirth decks too. Rebirth is nice, but when youâre damaging your minion as well it means your opponent justs kills the minion and the egg with it. The only card I see it being decent with is Taygette and even thatâs a stretch.
Saberspine Tiger:
Probably the most controversial card over the course of the gameâs history. There have been multiple discussions over the card and overall I think the result was that this card is fine. Even with Third Wish, Kara, it was generally the other card/ability being broken and Tigerâs Rush amplifying the effect that led to the problem. Tiger is fine by itself, it just make broken stuff even more broken.
Again the rework essentially guts the card. Might see play in Argeon? But aside from that itâs too weak of a body for its cost to be used in anything. If it trades into anything the enemy general just bops it and thatâs that.
Elucidator:
I do think the rework is fine and actually a good card that would see play in Mag decks. But, I donât play the Magmar decks that use this card so itâs not my place to say whether or not Elucidator needs change.
Tectonic Spikes:
I think we can all agree that Decimus + Tectonics Spike Combo is nonsense, but what is up for debate is whether Tectonic Spikes by itself is fine. I honestly canât say, my opinion is that by itself itâs fine. But honestly I havenât played against it enough to truly say(Iâm on break from Duelyst, Iâve played for 10 seasons straight I need to take a break for a good while.).
I think what we can also agree on that itâs rework is horrendous. If it read; 3 mana deal 2 damage to an enemy minion, draw a card, Iâd be sceptical and consider it an eh card, spending 3 mana just to do two damage is overpriced and misses out on important cards outside of Songhai ranged minions. But it does say draw a card so it automatically is at least playable. But the fact that it demands you be in the same row as the minion creates a clunkiness that makes it far too unreliable, without the limitation it was a meh card, with it itâs unplayable.
Misc:
Enfeeble:
I honestly havenât played against this card card enough to have a reasonable opinion. Iâm currently on break from Duelyst, but, I think 4 is enough, 5 is overkill. Heck, itâs one mana off Metamorphosis which does the same thing but better.
Concealing Shroud:
Again, I have only played against this card once. Yes, it was frustrating. No, I donât think it should be four mana, that would be too much tempo loss for the effect. Even three would be pushing it.
Bloodmoon Priestess:
Whatâs wrong with this card? Itâs an incredibly niche card for a specific archetype that currently does not see much play. Why does it need to be utterly gutted?
Rush cards are generally played in aggressive decks. Vaath Smash, Aggro Lyonar, Fast Abyssian, etc. Meaning youâre up close and personal and looking to lose out the game as soon as possible. If youâre playing your balanced Tiger as an on curve 5 drop, itâs gonna deal 3 damage to something, and take damage back. Letâs say best case scenario, it hits a Healing Mystic or something and goes down to 2 health. Their General slaps your 3/2 and you just spent 5 mana to kill a 2 drop and hit the General for 3. Letâs compare that to Dancing Blades. Dancing Blades deals 3 damage when played and leaves a 4/6 body on the board. Tiger has the advantage of not requiring specific positioning, one tile longer reach, and the ability to go face. So letâs talk more about this.
Positioning does matter as in the meta weâre in, Dancing Blades is often played around. That will fade out, then the card will come back and it will be played around again, as the cycle has been since the dawn of time (which is p funny). But youâre still often able to get value out of it. If youâre playing an aggro deck as stated above, reach likely isnât an issue, and if you need to reach something in the corner itâs probably more effective to chain minions and dispel it with a Shroud (3 attack doesnât kill Kelaino, etc)
Letâs assume we donât want to go face with our Tiger (so he canât kill it with face next turn) and thereâs nothing to slice with our DBlades. We just want a body. A 4/6 is far more threatening than a 3/4 in every way. A 3/4 dies to Spectral Blades, Falcius, Cryogenesis and more while a 4/6 is relatively tanky and can kill every 2 drop in the game with health to spare. A 3/2 for 5 with a mediocre, situational ability is terrible. And a 3/4 for 5 with no ability is worse.
Letâs talk about buffs.
If youâre going to buff your Tiger, itâs going to cost mana. Roar Tiger is 6 mana, Holy Tiger is a whopping 9, Greater FortiTiger is 6. Roar Tiger might still be used as a finisher, but I think people would lean towards more reliable and cheap options, most likely control Lyonar and Zooing them to death. Greater Fortitude is a nice, cheap buff, but itâs not worth running Tigers for the sole reason of complimenting that, as theyâre pretty useless without the buff and itâs a heavy 6 mana play that isnât as effective as something like a Silithar Elder. Holy Tiger would be sweet, as your Tiger would likely live at full health, but then youâre playing 9 mana, your entire lategame play, for some AOE and a weak body. Two cards (including one of the best in the game) and full mana, when you could instead do something like Ironcliffe Holy Immolation, which reaches ANYWHERE on the board and leaves a far more threatening body, with provoke, and the card isnât useless until 9 mana.
In other decks itâs laughable. Why run Tiger when you can run Spectral Revenant, a 6/6 with a great ability for only 2 more mana? A 5 mana Tiger is just plain bad. In every way.
In regards to ramping, I assumed youâd be low silver or something because of your comment about the center mana tile. Not that a low silver canât share opinions, but it came off as though you donât have much experience with the game. The center mana tile is there to counteract the obvious advantage that P1 gets, the ability to move their minion first. What makes Duelyst different from other card games is the strategic element of movement. This is most important in the early game, with the mana tiles. Take that away and the game simply loses depth.
As it stands, the middle tile is not an issue. If you find yourself thinking that youâre losing games due to the center mana tile, you need to reevaluate your play, and possibly your deck. But the main reason I defend ramping is because itâs a fun style of play. I played ramp Abyssian back before it was cool, and although it wasnât super effective, itâs a fun tactic when you can pull it off. But it is simply countered with good early game positioning and play by the opponent. I never saw anyone complain about ramping before Variax was released, and I think itâd be a shame to remove an entire play type from the game for no reason, as ramping as a whole is clearly not OP, I think.
/endthoughts, finally.
With Tiger, thatâs sortof the idea. Itâs a neutral card, which means it needs to be at odds with faction cards. If itâs outclassed by faction cards, that isnât a big deal- and since it isnât outclassed by Blades, it has a niche. But yes, the idea is to make it prohibitively expensive to suit up a rush minion outside of Songhai.
TBH, I think youâre reading too much into these suggestions as though this is a salt thread. My experiences in Duelyst havenât swayed me to these opinions because âx feels bad when people do it to meâ- so much as âx has too much sway in an alarming number of games specâd or playedâ- whether in my favor or against it. Iâve been blown out by Divine Bond more than Tiger- but that doesnât mean Divine Bond is a problem. I have been able to distinguish what was just poor play on my end, bad RNG, and what really both in and out of my favor has created some pretty busted gamestates.
I used to grind Magic tournaments- and while that doesnât make me a good Duelyst player- it does make one consider sample sizes intrinsic to balance related issues. The kind of gauntlet my playgroup would create for our brews would involve format-based decks with maddening power levels, and group rotation (passing the deck to a friend to make them play it;) so that we could get intimate matchup based knowledge- and build understanding the parameters of the dominant archetypes. After a couple years of this, it takes alot from a TCG to get me salty to the point of calling something broken, unless itâs obviously busted on the surface.
Where that ties in, is that some cards in my experience have fundamentally broken Duelyst repeatedly, and I really just donât want to approach the balance discussion about a card without anything but salt to offer. If you disagree with my Tiger suggestion, do you have a better one? Iâd be happy to see it. If anybody left better suggestions Iâd happily errata the OP, with their suggestion and credit to them. But understand, I do respect your disagreement on all fronts; it would have been asinine to make a thread saying âDuelyst should have a major balance shiftâ and not expect resistance (infact, I feel pretty lucky that the resistance has all been so polite- in the Hearthstone forums, I would have been burned in effigy and told to kill myself by now.)
The ramping thing is something that peaved me when I started playing the game, and only just sortof got more and more peavish. I think the cost reduction spells are far less of a problem than the center mana tile because spending them reduces your handsize and options. I get your feeling that I might be low silver because my suggestion to change something so fundamental about the game; but my opinion is informed by seeing the grotesque permutations play out so frequently where P2 has to overdevelop, put themselves in a corner to defend a 3-drop etc, because the center mana tiles exacerbates FTA. Where, without it- player 2 would be at a slight disadvantage for roughly 2-3 turns, but the power of their average play would exceed player 1âs (pushing the tempo of the game ever forward still- but not at the same breakneck pace.)
Iâve been complaining about ramping the whole time, but if Iâm being honest- the game has had bigger issues; just not recently. Gaze is the idol of ire because it empowers Smorcing, but has a very real opportunity cost attached (if your opponent doesnât have a full grip, you put them closer to it.) By comparison, overzealous cost reduction and Windfall (low cost, high value draw that forces the inactive player to mass draw as well;) effects (the Spikes precident) have REPEATEDLY broken CCGs over and over again (and many of them didnât have a hard hand limit of 6.) Even if we ignore the Decimus combo (which we shouldnât-) the sheer power these give to high tempo decks is nuts- and Duelystâs version does 3 damage to boot!
Anyways- thankyou for participating in the discussion 
Look forward to reading your next reply.
In my opinion the game is what I like to call âperfectly broken.â All factions (except maybe Vetruvian) have insanely busted cards in a vaccuum, except Songhai, but they have so much synergy with everything in their kit that the normally âbadâ cards are now really cheesy. I absolutely love this gameâs state in the upper half of decks, as its a competition to out bullshit the other player. The interactions, counterplays, baits and all are wonderful, and I hope they donât change too much. Maybe a nerf or two to Magmar, hopefully a buff to Kara or the Vetruvians, I donât really know. The losing to RNG can be a bit annoying, but this is afterall a card game.
I like to run tiger with kara to leave a 4/1 body on the board after rush-facing. Costs 1 mana and leaves 4 damage still open to respond.
Your revised Tiger is most definitely outclassed by DBlades. In nearly every way. My previous post discussed that, and was my main point in why this Tiger is basically useless.
My argument isnât that there are better nerfs when it comes to Tiger, itâs that the card doesnât need a nerf. If I listed cards that I thought were maybe too strong in Duelyst, it would be Kelaino, Gaze and Variax, all for different reasons. And even then I donât think any of these is too bad. Tiger hasnât been oppressive, itâs not so strong that itâs played in every deck, itâs simply often the only option for the role the card plays. And as the game expands, some cards will do Tigerâs roll better in some decks, and it wonât be seen as much. But as it stands, I just donât think you can call the card OP.
I actually quite like the meta right now. Most everything is viable, thereâs no single deck that just destroys everything else, itâs pretty solid. I wouldnât mind modifications to the game map or starting mana costs, but I donât really see a problem with it in its current state. If youâre protecting a 3 drop in the corner, odds are you arenât a deck that wants to get close anyways, and your opponent isnât likely to take all 3 tiles, so you can still contest them.
The beginning of the game gives a lot of options, especially for P2. Take the mana tile and play 2 2 drops, but let them clear the one in front? Play a 3 where they can hit it? Protect a 3? Play it just out of range? Play a 3 drop with a 1 cost spell? And I donât think we should get rid of this dynamic. If we do 3 drops will be vital as well, and itâll be âP1 plays a 2 drop on the diagonal, P2 plays a 3 drop on the diagonalâŚâ not very interesting. And if youâre a ranged deck, youâre forced to contest the mana tiles or lose to your opponent ramping out something you canât deal with.
As it stands, I havenât heard anyone who has a problem with Tiger, the mana tiles or Bloodmoon before, and I simply think your arguments against them donât have much support.
Your suggested changes would shift the game to a control meta, which is fine by me (itâs been a while) except that you simply invalidate so many cards. With the release of Variax and Geomancer, it doesnât seem as though CPG ever wants a control meta to come back, and prefers a faster game. I feel as though people underestimate control decks currently, theyâre more viable than you think.
I know this isnât a salt thread. I know you think these changes would help the game. But as I see it, itâs quite a few extremely hard hitting nerfs for no reason, and taking away several interesting aspects of the game, yet again for no reason. Having weak logic behind removing ramping or nerfing balanced cards leads me to believe you havenât put answers in your deck for things like Bloodmoon and are pissed at Ramp Variax. Why else would you want to remove an entire archetype, change the gameâs map, nerf cards that no one else is complaining about? Your arguments just donât hold up.
I was referring to his nerfed Tiger, the 3/4 for 5. There are plenty of cheap combos with current Tiger, and Kara BBS isnât even the strongest.
Forgive me if this sounds like a dumb, knee-jerk rebuttal; but being perfectly honest- People have complained about Tiger for as long as Tiger has had Rush. Even when the reddit was a barnstorm of âKara is Evilâ threads, the argument raged between ânerf karaâ and ânerf tigerâ- when I dug backwards, it was the same deal with old Third Wish. Up until Bloodborn, people were complaining about Tiger because of how much it contributes to Tempo Argeonâs domination. The tiger argument isnât without both precedent and a repeated pattern of a neutral card creating imbalances. For the record, I was always on the âChange Karaâ, and âChange Spelljammerâ end the more recent discussions; but the fact still remains that for as long as there is an efficient, cheap, or powerful buff- Tiger will find itâs way into domination once more. In the last month, sure- nobody has really made an uproar about a tiger combo, mostly because the reddit and forum have been cursing Gaze and Variax- the same way that the reddit and forum shifted to Reva rage in between the Kara and Argeon salt.
Bloodmoon is the same sortof deal. Deathwatch is insanely easy to setup because of generals being able to finish off minions, 1/1 spamming etc. I donât think Bloodmoon has ever been off-the-table for discussion about balance issues for as long as Iâve played. I am aware that it once cost 3 mana- and was adjusted to 4 a very short time before I began playing; but the tools that are played with it have also gotten significantly better.
Variax⌠is a confusing âissueâ. Mostly, because having played it- Iâm leery about over-correction and over-reaction. Since weâve never really played in a world where Variax is actually played as a 7 drop, we donât know how it stacks in a fair game. Iâve played 7 mana Variax, it has been good- but the likelyhood of it being deemed âinferior to Revenantâ without the sheer force of DFS and Bloodmoon support is super real. Much of the high level play tends to eschew Variax for that reason already- but whether thatâs a mistake or not has yet to be seen and properly stressed.
I honestly, donât think that a âcontrol metaâ exists- or rather, in my experiences, they really donât. Iâve played many MtG formats with mammoth control decks that were format boogeymen, but those formats tend to have the most wiggle room as far as âwhat to playâ goes. I do, however, think that these changes would make Argeon significantly weaker and encourage a midrange/big aggro meta⌠But I think that would be an ideal direction for the game atm- so I do have bias.
Yeah, we can disagree. Iâve always thought that the combos with Tiger usually broke more than just Tiger, so they should be the target of nerf. And so it has been. You shouldâve seen pre-nerf Tiger back in alpha 
You can swarm your way to gold, but itâs definitely not easy to set up in the fast meta played currently. The only viable top tier swarm is fast swarm, reliant on killing your opponent before 6 mana. The setup required otherwise is too difficult and inconsistent. I main swarm, and it just isnât strong compared to other decks. And if it were, Bloodmoon wouldnât be the problem, Kelaino would be. Bloodmoon is the only source of self generating swarm.
I just donât agree with the things you think are problems with this game. I donât even really play these cards and I donât see anything wrong with them currently. And I donât think Iâll end up agreeing with you, but thereâs no sense in endlessly arguing.
Huzzah, this is what makes forums fun!
In large, I would tend to agree. When I first started, the whole âthingâ was Kara with Ash Mephyts and Tigers. Found myself baffled that it was remotely okay for Ash Mephyt to work with double KS. But in time, I tried to brewing Ash Mephyt with things like Inner Oasis (which is very fun) and learned rather quickly that itâs the enabler that pushed Mephyt so hard.
Interesting avenue. Though my opinion all Kelaino has been for a while that the issue isnât what Kelaino does, but Vanar and Vet specifically having zero sustained healing, or high burst healing like Earth Sphere. I suppose it sortof makes sense for Vanar since they have all of the cheap dispels- but I actually think the game is in need of more faction-based sustained healing. Sun Seer, for example, is one of my favorite cards- but dreadfully tough to play because itâs proc is an attack trigger- and the payoff of 2 life makes itâs baseline meh. Iâve gotten high value Sun Seers before, but it (like other attack triggers) is sortof lacking in support beyond âtuck it in a place where itâs difficult to eat itâ.) Sustained healing is what makes exciting cards like Killing Edge more or less fair.
D: Oh no, I hope you donât see this as an argument. I thought we were just engaging in some critical conversation to pass the time and learn how weâve reached different conclusions.
@paralykeet
I think you are (as am I) wanting a different game than Duelyst was originally meant to be. I really like your ideas, but sadly they are going to fall on deaf ears.
Most of us are aware of what this game was meant to accomplish in its earlier incarnation: super fast, super swingy, super fun matches; with a dash of strategy baked in with the postioning aspect. As soon as one card draw started, it was a clear indication that CP wanted to slow the game down a smidgen and remove some of the consistency. I had no real issue with the changes because the 2-draw format was not sustainable in the long-term, in regards to design space. As much as I want this game to slow down even more, it just isnât something that the majority of the players want.
It is not to say your ideas preclude the ability to play decently quick matches any given moment, with player skill and RNG of the draw as major factors. Itâs simply this: removing the level of ramp will slow the game down, but not necessarily remove aggro as an archetype.
Hell, I have dreamed of a bigger board with even more mana springs with giant armies of minions marching across the great divide, between generals with 50 health, but that is not Duelyst and never will be. If for nothing else, I would love to see a slightly bigger board in an alternate game mode. I would also like to see the center mana tile removed because it does strongly encourage players to move center or risk 100% suboptimal plays. But, then again, that is the entire point and CP is not going to change that and risk having the average per-match game time increase.
Where is the balance between what I want Duelyst to be and what CP is attempting to achieve? It is easy to answer for myself, but absolutely impossible for me to explain to others beyond my own opinions. We all have to decide whether or not to play the game as presented to us, hope CP at least considers the majority playerbase input on long-term game development, or walk away. There is no point in playing a game you donât support and doesnât support you.
Life is too short to get bent out of shape on stuff like this. And I know this is not a salt thread, so donât think that I am dismissive to your or anyone elseâs ideas because of it being a game, with little consequence to life on this little rock in space. We have to hold on to the little joys in life, be it games or hobbies, to balance out the sometimes bewildering lessons of mere existence and our ability to contemplate the meanings of such, along with the burden of consciousness in generalâŚ
âŚwhatever, donât mind me. Iâll just be over there in the dark corner crying over the futility of human existence and wallowing in self-doubt. Maybe I should throw myself a pity party, too.
Oh no, definitely a discussion. And I agree with you on the healing bit, but I donât see it happening with the route this game is taking.
As for the healing trigger, perhaps Daywatcher is what your looking for? Or perhaps that requires too much setup.
Idk to be perfectly honest what the developerâs intentions are. Many of the things that Iâve described arenât issues with early beta Duelyst. 2 card draw Duelyst is all about playing 2 drops, and accelerating super hard into bursty, flashy wins. But that isnât what the game IS anymore. 1 card draw, increased focus on profitable trading etc. fundamentally change how the game works- and elements that were once cute nods to other games have become full blown design issues. Mana springs, for example, are sortof a wink and nod to Faeria, and originally were meant to attract players to the center of the board early on because the game was built from the floor up to be played at a breakneck pace with small hand sizes, and lots of cheap plays.
But, with a larger opening hand, single card draw, and Bloodborn Spells, the game simply wants to be played more ponderously in windows created by whatever tools you have. That doesnât mean that the game has to be slower per se, to keep high tension tactical play- but it does have to accommodate the need for many strategies to slow the game down. The result being that Duelyst is sortof stuck in a limbo right now between being itâs own CCG experience, and a SMorcier Hearthstone clone with bits of Faeria sprinkled all over it.
That would be nifty. Iâve actually wanted to see how cards that generate mana springs would effect the game.
RE: This isnât a salt thread 
Really, the only thing that makes me even want to make this sortof thread is how much Duelyst is on the cusp of being something all itâs own- and how short of leap it has to make by letting go of what it has imitated, and what it was in Alpha. If this were a game like Hearthstone or Faeria, thatâs already sortof set in what it is, I wouldnât see a point in making a post like this (and I refrain from making posts like these often because of how many pop up in a half baked manner.)
I donât really expect anyone at CPG to read this. To be perfectly honest, I didnât even expect it to get 13 forum likes either. My expectation was to share some thoughts, get flamed for being a scrub, and go on with life. Rather, I just wanted to perform a forum community oriented thought experiment in the vain hope of stirring up some interesting conversation about the state of Duelyst without necessarily fixating on the immediate flavor of the week issues. That went pretty well If a Dev does read this though, I hope they decide to tell me what a turd I am on Discord, so thatI can screenshot it, save it, and keep it as a souvenir whether Duelyst plummets or flourishes.
The very next line, dude.
I do love a good discussion, and this one really has potential to go far. Letâs keep it rollinâ along!
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