Duelyst Forums

A Few Balance Thoughts

#1

With the upcoming patch (which is likely not a balance oriented patch,) I’d like to weigh in a wee bit about some balance changes that I think would benefit the game in 2017. I don’t intend for these to be taken too seriously, as I’m not a well-known, or even a great player (I spend more time spectating than playing to be perfectly honest.) What follows will be a series of small changes and some rationale.

Ramping in Duelyst is Too Much

The single biggest issue I’ve had in Duelyst since I’ve started playing last June, isn’t that the game paces too fast, or the insane out of hand damage combos, or even the power level of any individual card- it’s how insanely good ramping (mostly through cost reduction) is in Duelyst. In this suggestion/thought experiment, I’m simply going to go over changes to move the game away from cost reduction spells- with exception for Vortex (since that is a very Songhai-flavored effect.) With that in mind, Abjudicator, Crystal Wisp, Kujata, Manaforger and Mana Vortex will not be touched.

Goal: Move the game away from cheating mana costs- slowing development of cards that are balanced by their mana costs.

The Center Mana Tile
The center mana tile should probably go. Player 2 is immediately one mana ahead of player 1 for the entirety of the game. Often, if player 1 can bully the board on the first turn, they get to take the center mana tile in addition to the the top or bottom. In Lillithe lists, it isn’t unheard to take all 3 mana tiles in a single turn!

While I get that First Turn Advantage is a very real thing, beginning the game with a one and two drop, or a three drop is often enough to curtail that. The center mana tile often works too much to Player 1’s advantage anyways, forcing player 2 to take it immediately if for no other reason than deny it to player 1.

Suggestion: Remove the center mana tile

Goal: Make the game less reliant on 2 mana minions, and less apt to blowouts via one player developing on multiple mana tiles in the same turn. To no longer punish player 2 from having to make their first move anywhere but towards board center.

Darkfire Sacrifice

Darkfire Sacrifice leads to Abyssian decks that are greedy on the number of 6-7 drops that they play, and both from the position of playing Abyssian and playing against Abyssian lead to games that are simply one-sided in the worst of ways. While jamming a midrange Variax-based Lillithe deck (called “DJ Flash”, as a reference to both Variax being a Grandmaster, and Wraithlings becoming “Furious”, after “Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five”; ) what I found is that if I could defend a mana tile, and then DS/double DS, into Variax, that would force an opponent perform an OTK in the next couple of turns. Lurking Fear is simply limited to Dying Wish minions, and only reduces the costs by 1- not having nearly the same effect as Sac.

Suggestion:

Darkfire Sacrifice
Abyssian Spell
2 Mana
Sacrifice a minion you control, add it’s ATK to each nearby friendly minion

Goal: This Darkfire Sacrifice might not be optimal, but it supplies another string combo piece for swarm (something that certainly isn’t missing.) There are probably better designs or errata, but it moves Abyssian away from jamming playsets of 7 drops without commiting to slowing the game down.

Flash Reincarnation:

Magmar gets a pretty absurd power level out of it’s 4 drops and Makantor Warbeast. I’m certainly against changing the Warbeast, but with the advent of Bloodborn, Magmar’s improved cardflow pushes ramping Elucidators and Warbeasts between spell-based damage bursts. I’d like for something that still works with Taygette, Warbeast and Fangs… and maybe Dreadnought too? :3

Suggestion:

Flash Reincarnation
Magmar Spell
0 Mana
Target friendly minion takes 2 damage, and gains Rebirth

Goal: Egg support. Creates burst with Wild Inceptor and Morin-Khur, adds extra steps to handling cards like Taygette for the opponent. Gets Magmar away from early Warbeasts and Elucidators for face pressure, and into building more resilient board setup oriented burst.

Board Oriented Burst

Perhaps, the most complained about thing on the forum and reddit is out-of-hand damage. But, I feel like that tends to miss out on why liquidating a hand into pure damage is so feelbad- because board development based burst exists, and is quite interactive and fun.

For example, consider the difference between Ironcliffe Guardian + Divine Bond, and Saberspine Tiger + Roar. One requires dropping a fatty onto the board, and then hoping it has enough HP by the next turn, or some kind of healing factor with the wombo combo. Saberspine + buff, or multiple Saberspine Tigers just leads to anti-climactic ends with little to no setup or counterplay.

Goal: Not to eliminate out-of-hand damage, but to change key parts to make the game significantly more about the push-pull of setup and removal.

Saberspine Tiger

Does anything need to be said? This bad boy has broken buff spell after buff spell, BBS after BBS. There isn’t another single card that has broken nearly as much, and not another culprit that has avoided reevaluation so much. From Kara and Zirix’s old BBSes, to Argeon’s Roar, from every version of Third Wish up until when it specified Dervishes. This card limits the developer’s design space, it unnecessarily punishes some slow decks, while over-enabling others.

Suggestion:

Saberspine Tiger
Neutral Minion
5 Mana 3/4
Rush

Goal: For as long as Saberspine Tiger has the wicked combination of Rush and ATK equivalent to it’s mana cost, it’ll simply be a minion that wears buffs a little too well. This version of the Tiger is less efficient, but still wears buffs well, but as a more mana intensive play. Gone are the days of double-Tiger lethals, but this variant is far more suitable for midrange strategies- eatting small minions are supplying pressure to the opponent while demanding to be traded into. While it might not be quite the efficiency powerhouse, there’s no doubt that this kitty still loves to hear Argeon’s Roar, or feel the Kinetic Surge. The clearest winner here, however, is Kaleos, whose blinking Tigers eat up small minions and with the health buff scales even better with Onyx Jaguar, Juxtaposition, Mist Dragon Seal, and Obscuring Blow.

Elucidator

Probably going to end up getting me flamed, but Elucidator, like Flash pushes Magmar too hard onto dumping tons of damage onto the opponent’s face in it’s current state. Thing is, Elucidator has sweet art, and is somewhat pivotal to Magmar’s identity as a core set rare- and I’d like to suggest a change that makes it stick even more clearly to the core of it’s Magmar identity.

Suggestion:

Elucidator
Magmar Minion
3 Mana 5/4
Opening Gambit: Deal 4 damage to your General
When Elucidator becomes the target of a Spell, it deals 2 damage to that spell’s controller

Goal: Trading one type of speed for another, this Elucidator is a superb beatstick that uses it’s life as a resource, and fuels “Painmar” with it’s punisher effect of making itself a particularly unfriendly target for spells. It comes down on the cheap, punishes the opponent for over-reliance on spell based removal and bullies the board by being huge. Techs well against Vanar.

Tectonic Spikes
The current Tectonic Spikes is lovingly called “cancer” by most of the Duelyst community. It’s an infuriatingly card efficient burst combo with the likes of Decimus and 1/2 drop spam. It pushes Mecha-horn into overdrive, and doesn’t really fuel Vindicator and Visionar quite as intended because of how much better it combos with every other route. While Magmar needs some drawpower, the card possibly goes far over the call to do so.

Suggestion:

Tectonic Spikes
Magmar Spell
3 Mana
Deal 2 damage to a minion in the same row as your General. If that minion is destroyed by this spell, draw a card.

Goal: What else do minions like Visionar and Elucidator have in common? They need proper removal to setup. Thumping Wave has proven that it’s okay to give Magmar efficient disruption. This punishes low health minions, especially ranged ones without entirely plugging the hole in the sense that Plasma Storm or TWave do by catching Widowmakers or buffed Heartseekers. Adds reach to Vaath’s BBS as a sortof removal tool, and can be card efficient to be a quality of life improvement to Magmar, without pushing 9 damage combos, and feelbad mill effects.

Misc. Suggestions

*Increase Enfeeble’s mana cost to 5. Functionally a wipe, just too mana efficient. Totally negates the usefulness of beatsticks and Mechs- counters high health minions too easily.

*Increase Concealing Shroud’s mana cost to 4. Ice Block is cool, but in it’s current form, it’s able to be chained into Alcuin Loremasters, artifacts, and Warbird procs too easily. The effect is cool, and the fact that it’s dispellable is nifty, but the opportunity cost to setting up it’s combos is frankly too low.

*Increase Bloodmoon Priestess’s mana cost to 5. Having played this for the last month on multiple accounts, the setup value is absurd. The opportunity cost to jamming it and then making a bunch of trades is insanely low.

*Turn Sunbreaker’s ability into an Opening Gambit, or make Geomancer’s ability static like Sunbreaker. Either way sortof works, but the inconsistency doesn’t make sense. If Geomancer wanted to be protected, it would make sense for it to be a 5/4, but Sunbreaker definitely isn’t statted to be a minion that wants to be protected, so why it carries a BBS-related ability that requires protection is fairly backwards.

*Going to make a thread in the next few days about an overhaul to Vet’s Base/Core, and minor changes to a couple of Denizens cards. Vet’s current state is something of a cluster, both in power and identity. The goal here is going to be giving Vet a more consistent identity that translates better with the rest of the game. In the meantime, I can keep dreaming of Circle of Dessication costing 6 :slight_smile:

Closing

Hope that you enjoyed my thought experiment! Dissent welcome, other ideas welcome too! I doubt CPG will actually peak at this thread without dismissing it in the first few paragraphs. If you managed to suffer through this text wall, I thank you.

Happy Dueling! Happy belated MLK day to our friends Stateside.

13 Likes
#2

Liked and commented immediately for the ramping alone. I’ll come back and edit this after reading through lol

#3

-Yes.
-3 Mana, enough to dent the investment, more fair on cost since it costs a card in hand that achieves nothing on it’s own. 4 seems steep(-ish, though I can understand why it could top at 4).
-Only think I dislike is how screwed you can be at getting to it if it’s save on a wall or corner. (never see it at the corner, but if no spell to address it, immortal with infinite wraithlings). If not 5 mana, 3/2?

-Would like to see a Vet overhaul thread. Complete agreement about Vet. I don’t play it myself, but would love to see some overhaul. Power distribution and identity is all over the place.

#4

Some very good ideas in here, but I don’t think the problem with Ramping is the actual Ramping, but rather what can be ramped. Ramp Abyssian had tools added in to try to enable the playstyle but before Variax, I can honestly say that I have only played against maybe 3 decks that focused on ramping.

The Magmar burst changes I think are also pretty interesting, but well thought out. The other ideas in my opinion are too strong of changes. Cards should be tweaked, not changed significantly because then they lose the purpose they originally were designed to fill.

#5

Idk. With Bloodmoon in mind, making it 2 health would make it too easily answered by Frostbone Naga and Vet disruption. 2 damage “lance” spells in the vein of True Strike, not to mention Tempest, Wind Dervishes etc, are far too good if they can just handle a 4-5 drop on their own. I think Priestess’s trigger condition could change, or the mana cost could increase slightly to make DFC and Variax setups just a little harder- but to make the minon any more fragile would be an over-correction imo.

1 Like
#6

I never understand why people ask for a change to tectonic over entropic. The same people who love to insult starhorn bbs but a 3 mana draw three to ur opponent and 3 damage is broken really over a 2 mana spell that deals 4 damage and draws one card.

Anyhoo I see you want to get rid of rush which I can understand.

#7

Entropic on it’s own is kindof innocuous, annoying at worst. 4 damage is quite a bit, but just gifting the other player a card often makes it worse than Blaze Hound. But it’s one of those cards, so despised that I don’t want to address it out of being worried about over-correcting what’s up with it. If the designers decide that 2 or 3 damage is more appropriate, then that is their call- but I can’t really say that I have a prescribed change.

Not quite. I think Rush should just have a large opportunity cost. Tusk Boar makes buffs temporary if they aren’t already. Without Darkfire, Revenant has to be played as a fair 7 drop, and without Flash, Warbeast has to be played as a fair 6 drop. Warbeast has a stat penalty for it’s keywords, and Revenant has competition in Klaxon and Variax for slots (not to say that a stat penalty to Revenant isn’t a possibility in the future- just for the time being, Abyssian’s high-end has Revenant on the same relative par.) Also, the Tiger suggestion isn’t to “kill Tiger”, but to make it’s role in the game flip instead of a face-thrasher, it’s sortof a one unit cleanup crew- good solid value, with a fair stat penalty for it’s Rush, but exceptional when wearing Roar, Kinetic Surge or First Wish.

#8

I respectfully disagree. First off, you’d be hard pressed to find a high level player who thinks tectonic spikes is more problematic than gaze. This is because Gaze is insanely more efficient. It’s only two mana and the damage is unavoidable. Additionally, it doesn’t damage your own General thus it also allows room for more self damage (Vaath smash, flameblood, etc).

In comparison, Tectonic Spikes is harder to use at three mana, has the drawback of self damage (which is very relevant in an aggro deck that wants to be in the opponent’s face), and deals less damage. If anything, Tectonic Spikes is the card that would be perfectly fine in a vacuum. I also think Tectonic Spikes can actually be an interesting card for future Starhorn/Magmar Flood decks (see: Zoochz’s youtube channel with his Thraex Swarm video).

Anyways, I mostly agree with your observation regarding mana tiles. I also agree with the general principle regarding most of the ramp cards, but I don’t think some of the changes listed are the best. Lastly I also agree with all of the misc suggestions other than the one regarding Sunbreaker, as changing cards simply to make them more uniform (with cards not even in the same faction…?) seems off. edit: oops, don’t agree with Bloodmoon either

5 Likes
#9

Allow me to be the dissenter. It’s a fine goal to try and move the game away from ramping out insane minions, all the power to you. However, you’ve failed to identify the central problem of there being few other options for those on the receiving ends of these nerfs.

When you remove the central mana tile, you cripple player 2 IMMENSELY without giving them any power in return. The winrate of player 2 falls invariably and the game is unbalanced by a 50/50 coinflip.

When you remove Flash Reincarnation and Dark Sacrifice, you’ve invariably nerfed Big Abyssian (not Swarm Abyssian) and Control Magmar (not Rebirth Magmar, which doesn’t even friggin exist) without giving them anything in return. The winrates of these archetypes fall invariably, and its not like they’re doing too well in the first place.

As mentioned by @kingw, you continue to misjudge the problem with Tectonic Spikes: Entropic Gaze is what is currently breaking Magmar and nerfing Tectonic Spikes into the ground with a nuclear warhead of inefficiency won’t fix anything.

Elucidator is sort of key to the identity of Magmar and shouldn’t kill your General when you buff it (but at least you’ve suggested a rebalancing instead of an ultra nerf). You’ve overnerfed Enfeeble and Concealing Shroud. The Bloodmoon nerf might be okay, but its probably not necessary. Sunbreaker and Geomancer are different cards for different factions, they don’t need to match. The only thing I agree with is the change to Tiger, and only because I think it needs to change SOME way.

Regardless, I’m excited to see what you think of Vetruvian cards. :smiley: This was a fun read.

3 Likes
#10

I hope I don’t come off harshly. I just want to give my thoughts on each of the points you cover, which I’ll have to disagree with, with all due respect.

Removing the center mana tile
I think this creates a powerful problem for Player 2. Without a mana tile to chain 2 solid 2-drops, your potential for a strong turn-1 is crippled. No longer can you play double 2-drops, so only a 3-drop would be a strong opener. The problem here is that you want your deck full of 2-drops so that you can have a turn-1 play when going first. If you have to have plenty of 2-drops and 3-drops for going first or second respectively, it limits how people can build their decks, especially faster decks which rely on early-game tempo.

Ramping
The ability to ramp can be incredibly powerful tempo-wise. But it comes at the cost of damage on the summoned creature (Kujata, Flash), or an extra minion (Darkfire Sacrifice) plus the ramp card itself. In short, card advantage is lost. Why does this matter? Well…it usually doesn’t! And that’s where I think the real problem arises. Card advantage isn’t a concern for Abyssian if you get access to an insane, or to be politically-correct “Awesome” BBS which provides never-ending value. You can win games off nothing but your BBS without using another card for the rest of the game. Variax is the only true offender of ramping for this reason. The other ramping faction is Magmar, which mitigates ramping’s drawbacks by, well, drawing back. In other words, Tectonic Spikes stops Magmar from being punished for playing out entire hands earlier than expected. I’m surprised to hear that Entropic Gaze has people more concerned, though it is insane. I feel like Tectonic Spikes is a bigger problem for the aforementioned reason. Basically, ramping is only a problem because the drawbacks of ramping have been removed from those factions. The spells themselves are fine otherwise.

Board damage vs out-of-hand damage.

I can definitely say that being rewarded for preserving a board feels amazing, while getting the kill out-of-hand feels so…meh. I do feel though that there needs to be a fast comeback card or late game finisher readily available to all factions, and Saberspine Tiger fills the role. Yes, because it’s Neutral, it’s hard to balance the card so that it fits in all factions without breaking them. But I don’t think it’s fair to judge the card’s power based on the luckiest draws and combos. It can happen once in a blue moon, but I don’t think it’s enough to convince me that it’s oppressive.

Miscellaneous Changes
These fascinated me the most. Very interesting designs which bring new flavors to the game if not simply moving cards up the mana curve. Maybe Enfeeble could be 4 in order to still clear with Frostburn, and I think Concealing Shroud could be fine at 3, though I do feel it’s a tad undercosted for what it does. I’m fine with Bloodmoon Priestess as is. It’s already understated for its cost, and I think the ability is justified for how much you pay to get her on the board. I would be interested to see what would happen if cards like Geomancer lost their Opening Gambit abilities. Maybe give them less attack, but higher health for longevity. I don’t know.

I talked a lot. These are all just my thoughts. Hopefully, you can at least understand my reasoning if not agree with it. I made these judgements based on MY experiences on the ladder, and yours may be different.

1 Like
#11

Forgive me if this sounds crude, but on a design level that’s sortof ass-backwards. As in, the center mana tile is a half-baked way to fix a problem that it accidentally exacerbates. Player 2 begins with 3 mana, and is always 1 mana ahead of player 1. Thus, giving them to ability to make larger and more significant tempo plays for most of the game. Thing is, in healither, conventional card games, First Turn Advantage is simply handled by giving the players tools to extend the game- because extending the game is proven to offset FTA. The window isn’t even huge. Player 2 develops a bigger threat than player 1. If player one answers it by spending a card, they go down in hand advantage and tempo. If player 1 develops faster to keep the initiative, player two is more likely to answer and develop in the same turn.

Rather, player 2 having an entire extra mana is already a fix to FTA, and one of the better ones- because it encourages players to make early trades, and thus draw out the game for a crucial window of opportunity generated by the multitude of micro-decisions. Player 2 has never gotten “nothing” in Duelyst. Even reviews point out the issue of how tempo dependent the early game becomes simply because player 2 can make the 4 mana play immediately. Without the mana spring, however, player 2 is incenitivized to develop a 3 drop or a 2 drop and 1 drop (where going second doesn’t reward playing one drops unless you play so many of them that you can drop 2 alongside the 2 drop.)

Player 2 is often simply forced to take the mana tile to deny it, so that their opponent doesn’t take all 3 tiles. Which again, isn’t a situation where it offsets FTA. In addition, when player 2 cannot contest the center tile, it mounts onto player 1’s FTA, and encourages greedy mana spring plays without the awkward spacing and positioning of having to develop onto both the top and bottom tile at once- which itself involves significant opportunity cost.

The center spring is an artifact of 2 draw, pure tempo Duelyst. The move to 1 card draw, and increased choices in tech and removal are to get away from that- and consequently, the spring going is the best logical step towards fixing the game’s pacing issues.

Thing is, Big Abyssian is just good on the value of it’s cards- and Magmar isn’t too far off. Flash and Sac make cards balanced on their mana costs no longer functionally work at their mana costs, because there isn’t actually a significant opportunity cost to them, since they are cost reduction based ramp- making them tempo positive. CCGs move away from those effects over time (a’la Rituals from MtG), because they frequently over-enable and reduce the game to the most non-interactive strategies available. In Duelyst, traditional ramp effects (ones that go negative on tempo and expend a card for future advantage) aren’t really impressive (as we’ve seen with Lurking Fear and Crystal Wisp)- but that has been in large part due to the ritual-like tempo friendly ramp spells that make it too easy to cheat costs.

A more elegant fix would be “next turn” on both cards, but then it creates memory subgames that punish players for forgetting or miss-sequencing.

Howso? Spikes might not be the flavor of broken this week, but it creates a structural problem with balancing Magmar. Draw 3 for 3 and 3 life is insane value, whether it’s parallel or not is irrelevant since the 6 card hand limit often makes the other player get fewer cards for playing a fair game. Further, it enables strategies outside of Magmar’s regular need for such effects. While not as immediately annoying as Gaze, but more of a structural break. As mentioned earlier, I’m not opposed to Gaze changing, but I simply don’t have an answer for how to fix it. If it dealt 2 damage, it’d be laughably underwhelming, if it dealt 3, the opportunity cost would make it difficult outside of smorc’ing strategies. For the moment, it’s just above the curve, and countered by most of the healing in the game. But, it being layered with Warlocks, Rush guys, and Spike combos is what gives it lethality. Where spike is a huge problem no matter how the game shifts with regards to the power of healing- and that makes it easy to evaluate and suggest a change to. [quote=“thefirstgokun, post:9, topic:7684”]
Elucidator is sort of key to the identity of Magmar and shouldn’t kill your General when you buff it (but at least you’ve suggested a rebalancing instead of an ultra nerf)
[/quote]

Kindof a big point to it, is that it DOESN’T kill your general for buffing it, it enables Rancour, and any other similar effects, but as a hyper efficient beatstick, it also encourages you not to diretide frenzy or greater fortitude it without getting insane value- for the sole reason of keeping it’s baseline right, but effecting the opponent’s spells also offsets that- because it becomes more difficult to handle- encouraging the opponent to trade into it, and maximize it’s body value.

2 damage is almost negligible though. [quote=“mrmana3, post:10, topic:7684”]
I talked a lot. These are all just my thoughts. Hopefully, you can at least understand my reasoning if not agree with it.
[/quote]

Absolutely, that’s what these forums are for. I’m glad that you read and replied, and thoughtfully so.

Thanks for participating :smiley: Dissent is necessary for fruitful conversation, and I’m glad that you had some conviction to back it up rather than “devil’s advocate” dissent! Always looking forward to your posts

@kingw
Thank you for participating as well. Couldn’t find a part of your post to snip that wasn’t covered above. Happy dueling!

#12

I don’t want to sound like a major jerk, but the number of cards that would be completely useless if you were a developer is astounding.

Tigers a 3/4 for 5? Compare that to Dancing Blades. Makes tiger completely useless. Can’t think of a single deck I would play this in.

Blood moon already takes a ton of setup to use at all, and even then it HAS to be dropped on curve or ramped out with tiles. If you want to drop it lategame you’re just going to get blown out, pressured or plasma stormed.

Shroud and Enfeeble are strong, but I think that’s a rather harsh nerf. Neither would see play.

Sunbreaker change? Sounds fine. Don’t mind much either way.

Personally I don’t have a problem with Tectonic. It’s a combo card, fills your hand and has self damage. It’s not a more annoying finisher than Thumpidator. No problem here. I’d want Entropic nerfed though, 4 face damage for 2 mana is too good.

Elucidator would never see play. Honestly never. Worthless.

Removing ramping would remove an entire element from this game, I completely disagree with everything you say there. Removing the middle mana tile would mean P1 nearly always gets at least one tile for free, and can contest or block off the second, while P2 is at a huge disadvantage. P1 is arguably stronger as is anyways. Don’t remove ramping, rebalance cards that are simply OP when ramped out (we all know who I’m talking about here).

This sounds simply mean, but what rank do you play at? If all of these changes were implemented I feel like most of the player base would simply stop playing. If you’re raging about Variax, don’t nerf the entire aspect of play, because it isn’t OP and never has been. I rarely saw Darkfire Sac before Variax, and even when I did it wasn’t a problem. But honestly with your Tiger edit and comments on the middle mana tile, I have to assume you have no idea what you’re talking about.

#13

[quote=“whyb0t, post:12, topic:7684”]
This sounds simply mean, but what rank do you play at?[/quote]

That isn’t mean! I mostly play at Gold, because I don’t have the nerve for ladder. I mostly spectate high level play and interact with a playgroup of high level players. Which is why I prefaced by mentioning that I’m not an ace player, and don’t intend to assume that. That being said, I don’t think that it invalidates my points- if only top 50 were allowed to make suggestions, what would be the point of having a suggestions part of the forum?

As for the rest, I think you may have answered hastily. I’m def not raging about Variax, or any archetype- I even think the game is approaching something towards pretty good balance all-in-all. The suggestions are speculative and deal with issues that aren’t meta-related, but are mostly from watching the game at all levels for the last half-year. I think it’s a leap to say that the playerbase would jump ship too, because the game has already experienced far deeper changes, and has only become more accessible and playable for them.

Specifically though…

Not sure where this logic comes from. The tiger can pressure face, position away from the unit that it’s developed near, can be buffed etc. The purpose of the suggestion is simply because efficient bodies with Rush have far less opportunity costs than a card like Blades. That isn’t an even remotely farfetched concept.

#14

Thanks to everyone for the interesting thoughts so far, I’m going to mull things over before deciding if I can add anything else, because I just want to add one thing.

Rush is always a component to these discussions, and I was wondering if Duelyst shouldn’t just consider taking a page out of Shadowverse’s book and amending Rush to negate any damage done to Generals. What say you?

2 Likes
#15

That or as someone has suggested, making it exhaust after attacking OR moving, not both.

1 Like
#16

Flash reincarnation is actually balanced.You get something out early but it takes damage.The only thing not balanced is forcefield minions(and gajj) and that isn’t really all that bad because the game has cheap removal and tempo loss of flashing out something have it removed for cheap is crushing.

You can compare DFS Variax to FR Sithlar.Going second Magmar can play Elder on turn 1.While it is one of the stronger plays you can make it is infinitely more counterable than Abyss Version.

Warbeast and Elucidator both have four health so most of the time when you flash them out they die.Yes you can stuff to mitigate them dying but the point of ccg is to be clever like that.

This is just one thing out of many things in your post that is wrong.You can make an argument that DFS and FR should have a cost like 1 mana but to be gone No that’s a horrible idea and this post is filled with tons of horrible idea but hey this just a persons opinion not a dev.

#17

I feel shadowverse’s differentiation between storm and rush could work well in duelyst. If tiger couldn’t attack face the turn it was played it would still retain a lot of utility and could be buffed for value, but it would also cut out the likes of tiger/TW shennanigans of 8 face damage for 6 mana before Mag have started clapping you with whatever else they happen to have on the field.

#18

removing the center mana tile is a terrible suggestion. this means player 2 spends their entire turn removing player 1’s 2-drop or they take both tiles to play 5 mana worth of minions next turn. if you want to remove 1 mana tile you have to remove all of them.

#19

Hey :slight_smile: I appreciate you effort into turning your thoughts into an article. However, I’m going to disagree with you on most of your points. Here are my opinion on your points.

Darkfire Sacrifice:
I truly don’t see the point of changing Darkfire Sacrifice, it’s an underplayed card that enables greedy “Timmy” Abyssian decks based around big minions, which doesn’t much play. The only real problem is its interaction with Variax, but even than is gutting the card really necessary? It’s been proven that Turbo Variax is super inconsistent and a rather mediocre deck. Does a card that enables a fairly weak archetype need to be gutted for an inconsistent deck? I’ll admit while I think it’s fine to double ramp out Variax I’m not too fond of the diea. One idea I particularly like is just make it so Variax has the card text, This card cannot have it’s mana cost reduced. This keeps Sacrifice the same and Variax more or less the same, but even then I don’t think it’s entirely necessary,

Also, the rework is probably too situational and combo based to ever see play. Swarm hardly ever runs high attack minions to abuse Sacrifice with, and if you’re comboeing it with Darkfire Crescendo, chances are you had lethal without it. Furthermore, Voidsteal, which does the same thing more or less without a sacrifice is a thing so I doubt this version of Sacrifice will ever see play.

Flash Reincarnation:
On the other hand of the ramping game we have Flash Reincarnation, who sees plays in nearly every single version of Magmar. Flash is insanely relied on by both Control and Midrange Vaath, it’s the glue that makes greedy Magmar and standard Magmar work. The removal of Flash reincarnation would be utterly disastrous for these decks, Midrange mag relies heavily on Flashing out 4 drops to work while Control Mag wants it to get Makantor out early for Keeper. I’m not convinced with your argument that this card needs to go, Mag is not strong because it can flash out Elucidator or Makantor( Hell, flashing either is almost always a really bad play. Flash Makantor is only good if you wipe their board with it otherwise it’s a bad play and Flash Elucidator if you aren’t using it to finish off the game is utter garbage.)

Its rework is the kind of support that should not be printed. In an ideal world, why would you play a card in a Rebirth deck that wants you to run non Rebirth minions? For consistency sake, you want your cards to naturally have Rebirth if that’s the focus of your deck. You do not want to add a card that makes that forces you to play non-Rebirth cards and does nothing with your own Rebirth minions. The other issue is that it’s bad out of Rebirth decks too. Rebirth is nice, but when you’re damaging your minion as well it means your opponent justs kills the minion and the egg with it. The only card I see it being decent with is Taygette and even that’s a stretch.

Saberspine Tiger:
Probably the most controversial card over the course of the game’s history. There have been multiple discussions over the card and overall I think the result was that this card is fine. Even with Third Wish, Kara, it was generally the other card/ability being broken and Tiger’s Rush amplifying the effect that led to the problem. Tiger is fine by itself, it just make broken stuff even more broken.

Again the rework essentially guts the card. Might see play in Argeon? But aside from that it’s too weak of a body for its cost to be used in anything. If it trades into anything the enemy general just bops it and that’s that.

Elucidator:
I do think the rework is fine and actually a good card that would see play in Mag decks. But, I don’t play the Magmar decks that use this card so it’s not my place to say whether or not Elucidator needs change.

Tectonic Spikes:
I think we can all agree that Decimus + Tectonics Spike Combo is nonsense, but what is up for debate is whether Tectonic Spikes by itself is fine. I honestly can’t say, my opinion is that by itself it’s fine. But honestly I haven’t played against it enough to truly say(I’m on break from Duelyst, I’ve played for 10 seasons straight I need to take a break for a good while.).

I think what we can also agree on that it’s rework is horrendous. If it read; 3 mana deal 2 damage to an enemy minion, draw a card, I’d be sceptical and consider it an eh card, spending 3 mana just to do two damage is overpriced and misses out on important cards outside of Songhai ranged minions. But it does say draw a card so it automatically is at least playable. But the fact that it demands you be in the same row as the minion creates a clunkiness that makes it far too unreliable, without the limitation it was a meh card, with it it’s unplayable.

Misc:

Enfeeble:
I honestly haven’t played against this card card enough to have a reasonable opinion. I’m currently on break from Duelyst, but, I think 4 is enough, 5 is overkill. Heck, it’s one mana off Metamorphosis which does the same thing but better.

Concealing Shroud:
Again, I have only played against this card once. Yes, it was frustrating. No, I don’t think it should be four mana, that would be too much tempo loss for the effect. Even three would be pushing it.

Bloodmoon Priestess:
What’s wrong with this card? It’s an incredibly niche card for a specific archetype that currently does not see much play. Why does it need to be utterly gutted?

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#20

Rush cards are generally played in aggressive decks. Vaath Smash, Aggro Lyonar, Fast Abyssian, etc. Meaning you’re up close and personal and looking to lose out the game as soon as possible. If you’re playing your balanced Tiger as an on curve 5 drop, it’s gonna deal 3 damage to something, and take damage back. Let’s say best case scenario, it hits a Healing Mystic or something and goes down to 2 health. Their General slaps your 3/2 and you just spent 5 mana to kill a 2 drop and hit the General for 3. Let’s compare that to Dancing Blades. Dancing Blades deals 3 damage when played and leaves a 4/6 body on the board. Tiger has the advantage of not requiring specific positioning, one tile longer reach, and the ability to go face. So let’s talk more about this.

Positioning does matter as in the meta we’re in, Dancing Blades is often played around. That will fade out, then the card will come back and it will be played around again, as the cycle has been since the dawn of time (which is p funny). But you’re still often able to get value out of it. If you’re playing an aggro deck as stated above, reach likely isn’t an issue, and if you need to reach something in the corner it’s probably more effective to chain minions and dispel it with a Shroud (3 attack doesn’t kill Kelaino, etc)

Let’s assume we don’t want to go face with our Tiger (so he can’t kill it with face next turn) and there’s nothing to slice with our DBlades. We just want a body. A 4/6 is far more threatening than a 3/4 in every way. A 3/4 dies to Spectral Blades, Falcius, Cryogenesis and more while a 4/6 is relatively tanky and can kill every 2 drop in the game with health to spare. A 3/2 for 5 with a mediocre, situational ability is terrible. And a 3/4 for 5 with no ability is worse.

Let’s talk about buffs.
If you’re going to buff your Tiger, it’s going to cost mana. Roar Tiger is 6 mana, Holy Tiger is a whopping 9, Greater FortiTiger is 6. Roar Tiger might still be used as a finisher, but I think people would lean towards more reliable and cheap options, most likely control Lyonar and Zooing them to death. Greater Fortitude is a nice, cheap buff, but it’s not worth running Tigers for the sole reason of complimenting that, as they’re pretty useless without the buff and it’s a heavy 6 mana play that isn’t as effective as something like a Silithar Elder. Holy Tiger would be sweet, as your Tiger would likely live at full health, but then you’re playing 9 mana, your entire lategame play, for some AOE and a weak body. Two cards (including one of the best in the game) and full mana, when you could instead do something like Ironcliffe Holy Immolation, which reaches ANYWHERE on the board and leaves a far more threatening body, with provoke, and the card isn’t useless until 9 mana.

In other decks it’s laughable. Why run Tiger when you can run Spectral Revenant, a 6/6 with a great ability for only 2 more mana? A 5 mana Tiger is just plain bad. In every way.

In regards to ramping, I assumed you’d be low silver or something because of your comment about the center mana tile. Not that a low silver can’t share opinions, but it came off as though you don’t have much experience with the game. The center mana tile is there to counteract the obvious advantage that P1 gets, the ability to move their minion first. What makes Duelyst different from other card games is the strategic element of movement. This is most important in the early game, with the mana tiles. Take that away and the game simply loses depth.

As it stands, the middle tile is not an issue. If you find yourself thinking that you’re losing games due to the center mana tile, you need to reevaluate your play, and possibly your deck. But the main reason I defend ramping is because it’s a fun style of play. I played ramp Abyssian back before it was cool, and although it wasn’t super effective, it’s a fun tactic when you can pull it off. But it is simply countered with good early game positioning and play by the opponent. I never saw anyone complain about ramping before Variax was released, and I think it’d be a shame to remove an entire play type from the game for no reason, as ramping as a whole is clearly not OP, I think.

/endthoughts, finally.