1.74: Removal options and why Vetruvian is severely hampered going forward


#1

I went through and looked at each factions choices for either semi to complete removal/dispel, and I found the main problem with post1.74 Vetruvian is that they lack any kind of unconditional removal/dispel outside of the 8 mana Circle of Desiccation.

Types of removal:

  1. Unconditional: no restrictions are placed on these, meaning you can target any minion at any range. These are several times more valuable than any of the other options.

  2. Positioning: these allow you to either move closer towards the enemy unit you want to remove, or pull the enemy minion within range so you can dispose of it. Not the strongest, but has its uses. These are probably second most valuable assuming you have minions to finish the job.

  3. Conditional: some sort of restriction is placed on these, and severely limits your ability to negate a range of threats

  4. Rush/Airdrop+Provoke: these are units that have innate abilities to disrupt a threat from distance. Rush units aim to remove the unit that turn, while airdrop+provoke will only harass ranged/blast while leaving ability threats unhampered.

  5. Buffs: these are buffs to your units that will ONLY AID your ability to remove units from across the map on the turn they are played.

  6. Artifacts: these are artifacts that allow you to impact a unit far away from your general

Lyonar: 15 total. 8 unconditional, 1 positioning, 2 conditional, 2 airdrop, 1 buffable, 0 artifact
Songhai: 15 total. 7 unconditional, 2 positioning, 0 conditional, 1 rush, 3 buffable, 1 artifact
Vetruvian: 15 total. 1 unconditional, 0 positioning, 9 conditional, 2 rush, 2 buffable, 1 artifact
Abyssian: 13 total. 8 unconditional, 1 positioning, 2 conditional, 1 rush, 1 buffable, 0 artifact
Magmar: 12 total. 4 unconditional,0 positioning, 4 conditional, 2 rush, 0 buffable, 0 artifact
Vanar: 10 total. 6 unconditional, 1 positioning, 2 conditional, 0 rush, 1 buffable, 0 artifact

Note, these say nothing about the quality of these options, just the quantity. For example, Vanar has fewer options, but they are all very strong. That said, it is pretty clear there is a problem with the amount of unconditional Vetruvian dispel/removal options, especially given the single unconditional Vetruvian option is a cost 8 spell.

Are there any possibilities of seeing more “unconditional” removal for Vetruvian in the future? IE, no limitation on range or target? The other factions have quite the variety to chose from.


#2

Like from me, I couldn’t have worded this any better, hope you get some good response out of this!


#3

I agree so much not as a vet main. Siphon was the only ranged removal I had in my OTK sajj deck, and since it’s gone I can’t stall hard enough in order to get the hand i want. I’ve resorted to a structure dervish deck but it’s having issues with a lack of good removal.


#4

Vetruvian has some of the most powerful tools in the game. The ability to easily neutralize opposing threats regardless of their position on the board is an area where the faction could stand a slight adjustment. We think forcing Vetruvian to care more about positioning to dispel enemies is such an adjustment.

I feel like they’re playing their own game at this point. With the worst removals in the game, they can neutralise anything, true, but remove nothing. They disregard positioning? It’s kinda the only faction in the game that cares more than any other on positioning considering entropic decay and dominate will. And how are we gonna compensate the nerf to siphon by better positioning??? I really dont get it. Im just at a lost of words.


#5

If the goal is to have all factions play similar styles (on curve minions with backup from global removal), then I agree with you. Vet is in the trash. However, I very much want this game to evolve to the point where the different factions are playing different games. This is the biggest step I’ve seen the developers take in that direction since I started playing in July (yes, I’m still a newbie). And for that reason, I am willing to hold off on criticism until they have a chance to balance it.

Creating (and eventually balancing) a faction that can be played (AND be viable at highest tiers of play) without global removal would add a ton of new faction flavor to Vetruvian which up til now has kinda been a hodgepodge of other factions’ strengths. Do I think they’ve achieved that with 1.74. No. I don’t. But I LOVE the direction, if they can make it work.


#6

I see what you are trying to say, however none of those tools are currently in game for Vetruvian to gain an advantage by positioning.

Vetruvians identity of “caring about positioning” is nothing but a flaw currently when spells (entropic decay, siphon) and abilities (structure, blast) are limited by positioning instead of enhanced by them. Furthermore, since some factions do not care at all about board (Songhai variants), it is even a bigger drawback. Furthermore, Vetruvian has 0 spells to alter enemies positioning which is a MUST if this will be our new faction identity. If there were buffs for Vet being in some kind of ideal “positioning”, ie +1 damage for units next to each other, I could see your point, but until then, I don’t.

Vetruvians identity is in constant flux and the faction is often thrown into a horrible mess when nerfs like the siphon one come without anything to counterbalance it.


#7

The best solution I have seen so far is to make Siphon act in the same way as blast. To be more clear, the text could be “Dispel an enemy minion in the same column or row as your general.” But given that there are only 5 rows, this may not be enough of a “restriction”. Perhaps also make the mana cost 1.

BTW for those interested, Hsuku is streaming right now playing Vetruvian in Gauntlet with basically no dispels, I think maybe he got one Shroud.


Nerf threads here could really use a nerf
#8

Zoo vet with battle pet and their 0 mana battle pet that dispel a random enemy minion next to it ? Just to remember he exist.


#9

@norfemignissius Rae was counted as a conditional above because it only hits the nearest target and the enemy usually can choose which that is.


#10

Just wondering…which are the unconditional for magmar? Flaming stampede, lava lance, kinetic equilibrium and? Assuming that ke and lava lance can be considered removals since they wont help you vs a shadow dancer, a priestess, a magi, a scarab and such

(btw i already posted that while i mained vet for just like 2 weeks after shimzar, i dont think ranged siphon was a problem, just wondering how you did the math)


#11

I’d say thumping wave. It’s the most important magmar removal, probably moreso than egg morph (because it’s both a ranged answer and face damage).


#12

Lava Lance (unlimited range, no target restrictions)
Natural Selection (unlimited range, no target restrictions – assuming you clear other lower atk threats, this is borderline conditional but is NOT hardcapped like plasma storm)
Thumping Wave (unlimited range, no target restrictions)
Kinetic Equilibrium (unlimited range, no target restrictions)
Flaming Stampede (unlimited range, no target restrictions)

Magmar doesn’t have the best options either (Flaming Stampede is expensive, Lava Lance is weak, KE is weak, and NS has some borderline conditional statements), but atleast they have the all powerful Thumping Wave.


#13

how can natural selection being borderline conditional if it has a plain condition on the tooltip? :stuck_out_tongue:
Also making a count just for the sake of it just doesnt mean anything, lava lance rarely sees play, kinetic equilibrium and stampede like never, they are not even true removals since they just do 2/4 dmg. Also you counted stars’ fury as conditional I guess :S


#14

Your list pretty flawed and suggests a wrong impression then. Mentioning Lava Lance, equilibrum and FUCKING FLAMING MEME in the ‘best category’ of removal doesn’t make sense. They are bad cards. And NS is defnitely conditional. I can agree that Thumping wave + egg morph (+plasma storm and meta) is all removal magmar needs atm.


#15

Yep, I made that note in the opening post this had nothing to do with quality :stuck_out_tongue: I don’t think Magmar is in a much better position than Vet, but they ARE in a better position. Thumping wave is great. Plasma Storm, NS, and Egg are also great conditionals.

Anyway, I added NS to conditional since it does have a condition on it as you stated.

P.S. I dont care if a card is awful – its still an option if you need it. If I had the choice to run KE or LL as Vet right now, I would…


#16

Well yes I did read it. Just pointing out that doesn’t make any sense to me :stuck_out_tongue: If you want to (legitimately) complain about Vet lacks of ranged removal it’s not the right direction to point that out


#17

Yeah i mean as Vet i most likely would too, i am 100% with you at the point that Vet needs at least one good ranged removal again, I just get triggered when i read flaming stampede :smiley:


#18

This is what I’d like to see to, but removal cards are something that needs to be more or less balanced among factions regardless of flavor and tactics of individual factions. If there’s nearly no way to immediately deal with a well-positioned threat in a 5x9 board game, the faction is simply incomplete, IMO. And please don’t tell me they have things like Wind Shrike (someone made this counterargument in another thread), they are easily countered by factions that have threats to remove - e.g. Songhai has Phoenix Fires to defend Four Winds and ranged minions defend themselves with buffs.


#19

What are you talking about, vetruvians have the greatest tools to neutralize minions. You just have to position yourself better. If you can’t utilize their tools properly just means you are bad at the game and positioning.

Ps. I read this from the patch notes. ;D


#20

i legit am going to write up a post regarding the utter retardation of this patch and stretching the changes needed to make this fix even semi-palitable in the current meta.

things like:

Pheonix fire needs to be 3 mana (hurts their removal, fixes latern fox)

Chromatic cold needs to be 3 mana (it was already better than siphon energy)

Aspect of the wolf needs to be 2 mana (its fucking insane and is a dispel/getfuckedbigminions)

Thumping wave needs to be 4 mana (see above, also synergy, and a 3/3 battlepet is worse than a 3/3 controllable minion)

Lyonar - sunbloom needs to be 3-4 mana (its on a faction with the best minions, their removal needs to be nigh nonexistent to make up for that fact.

etc etc

the point is, so many removal cards need to be trimmed down in duelyst to make this logic behind the vet nerf make sense, and i highly doubt we are going to see that.